Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/Today

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24 November 2024

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Sino-Kannauj War

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A mere raid that has been vaguely stretched into a War article. RSes do not refer to it as "Sino-Kannauj War", full of WP:HOAX. The article clearly fails to establish WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV. HistoryofAryavart (talk) 12:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep:@HistoryofAryavart Why there cant be a article? And better check sources and it has a coverage in sources a mere raid doesnt mean it cant have a article and what hoax? whicj info is wrong this Afd seems to based on your POV theres quit ample content for a article title can be changed. Also the theres literally a newsarticle over this in references this suggests that its quit notable.

Edasf«Talk» 12:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC) Edasf «Talk» 12:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Band Aid (band)

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WP:NOPAGE. Band Aid is the collective name of the numerous permutations of celebrity musicians who have recorded and released different versions of the charity song Do They Know It's Christmas. Most (all?) of the information on this page is duplicated on the Do They Know It's Christmas article. All we're achieving by having two pages is to have the same thing explained twice in different ways. This article should be redirected to that page. Popcornfud (talk) 12:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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58th

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WP:TOOSOON, the film will released on 2025 and it shouldn't create a Too Soon article and we will wait on 2025. Royiswariii Talk! 11:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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How about switching to "draft" article rather than delete instead? I know it's too soon but it's officially confirmed by GMA that 58th will be released soon next year as long as the article has been improved with better reliable sources. GeniusTaker (talk) 12:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possible but it much better to delete it to wait a more reliable sources in 2025. Royiswariii Talk! 12:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Antonio Muñiz

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A biography of a living artist. The article seems to be entirely promotional, and the artist not notable at all. I can't find anything that constitutes significant coverage in reliable sources that would come close to WP:GNG, and nothing that approaches any of the criteria at WP:ARTIST. Of the references in the article, three don't mention Muñiz at all, and the other is a local art blog.

The article was created by Abe21lincoln (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (who has no contributions unrelated to this topic), who wrote on the help desk have created one for my partner, Antonio Muñiz, as you can see (I guess). I also manage his website (http://www.anotniomuniz-art.com) and his Facebook page. (diff)

Consequently, I think we should delete the article. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 11:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Vittorio Zoboli

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Delete - my WP:BEFORE turned up a number of listings/database type sites, but no substantial secondary sources to really establish the subject's notability with respect to WP:NMOTORSPORT in my view. The article has been without citations for a long time - I did find a reasonable primary source for the Subject's Formula 4 championship win, which I have added, but I don't think that this is sufficient for notability. That said, I would happily defer to WP:MOTORSPORTS for their more expert opinion. SunloungerFrog (talk) 11:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Johnny Deley

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unnotable darts player, fails GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 11:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vic Hubbard

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unnotable darts player, fails GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 11:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reece Robinson (darts player)

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unnotable darts player, fails GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 11:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Serah (actress)

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Delete - my WP:BEFORE turned up nothing of substance to support the subject's notability with regard to WP:NACTOR. Based on the scanty information in the article as it stands, the subject wasn't mentioned in any review I could find. That said, it is difficult to unearth any needles from the haystack of results that come from only being able to search for a one word name, and a search on the subject's full name (extracted from https://web.archive.org/web/20090602050929/http://www.serahs.net:80/) turned up just four hits. I would happily rescind my nomination if someone, e.g. the creating author, were able to support notability. SunloungerFrog (talk) 10:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Before commenting (WP:BEFORE), I did a bit of research on the subject but didn't find much substantial information. Therefore, I agree with the nominator. Additionally, the article currently lacks any cited sources. Baqi:) (talk) 11:03, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Omran Daqneesh

AfDs for this article:

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:NOTNEWS, no WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE, lack of WP:INDEPTH, WP:BLP, and no WP:LASTING. Absolutiva (talk) 10:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Peter Fieber (footballer, born 1989)

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According to Soccerway, he only played 19 matches at professional level before moving to lower leagues then disappeared. The sources provided are either passing mentions and transfer announcements. Being the son of a former footballer, notability is not inherited from relatives. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 10:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Bart Simpson (filmmaker)

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after doing BEFORE, I am having a hard time to find any sigcov about this producer at all. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 08:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. I can't find the mention of the subject in all sources referenced in the article and before search did not bring anything useful for the sustenance of this article. This producer fails WP:GNG. Mekomo (talk) 08:59, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, Falls WP:GNG. Ampil ^{(Ταικ • Cοnτribυτιοns)} 10:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Angersbach

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Fails GNG; no people with the surname on Wikipedia. C F A 💬 14:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A redirect to Wartenberg, Hesse is an ATD. Angersbach is a geo dab in the German Wikipedia, which points to two subdivisions of municipalities. The Angersbach in Isen, Bavaria isn't mentioned in our article, but the one in Wartenberg is. Geschichte (talk) 14:52, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Cantaloupe Hotels

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Small Sri Lankan hotel chain. Aside from the primary source citations in this article, the rest are mostly a mixture of routine press coverage about new property openings and awards, therefore I don’t believe this crosses the threshold of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, to pass WP:CORP. Uhooep (talk) 08:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Miss Universe 2025

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Contested draft. WP:BEFORE search reveals a lot about a couple of 2024 pageants (mostly Miss Universe 2024), but little to nothing about Miss Universe 2025. Might be a ”not now” situation. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 06:23, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep: WP:TOOSOON it is. This year’s edition concluded recently on November 16. As one of the Big Four beauty pageants, it is anticipated that reliable sources will soon surface as countries finalize their representatives for the 2025 edition (four of which I see are already confirmed, with sources available but not yet included in the article). Furthermore, preparations and hosting bids for the upcoming edition are already in progress, with related updates expected to emerge shortly. I recommend adding tags, a citation or notability warning, to the article, rather than opting for its complete deletion. 'Draftify' is also a recommended approach.--— MimsMENTOR ^talk 17:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Per WP:V (verifiability) and WP:N (notability), the article does not cite any sources to support its claims or establish the subject's significance. It seems more like an attempt to create a page for the sake of it, rather than based on reliable and independent coverage that meets Wikipedia's standards. 🌼𝓡𝓬 𝓡𝓪𝓶𝔃🍁 (talk) 13:57, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:TOSOON, zero sources. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 12:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:TOSOON

نوح^فث ^{Let's Chat!} 20:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't see WP:TOSOON as a valid reason for deletion in this case. Scheduled or expected future events that are notable and almost certain to occur should be included, as outlined in WP:FUTURE. For an event like Miss Universe, one of the Big Four beauty pageants, its 2025 edition is undoubtedly going to happen. References to its upcoming editions, such as new rules and the introduction of a Latin reality show, are already available. Additionally, host country bids are open, and some participating countries have already begun their selection processes, with a few having finalized their representatives. While the article could be considered taking to draftspace, it definitely does not warrant deletion.--— MimsMENTOR ^talk 16:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mims Mentor I guess this is a keep !vote. My concerns were more about the lack of sourcing (that is, it's "too soon" to have sourcing) more than anything else. The sourcing has improved since. If only the draftification wasn't contested. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 17:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@I dream of horses I agree, the article lacks sources, and the "delete" votes are understandable, particularly regarding concerns about it being "too soon." However, outright deletion doesn't seem rational. For events of high significance, sources often emerge relatively quickly. I recommend exploring Spanish and Thai media, as there’s a strong likelihood of more coverage in these languages, given that the most recent edition was held in Mexico and the organizers are based in Mexico and Thailand. — MimsMENTOR ^talk 17:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mims Mentor A non-unilateral draftification is a legit alternative to deletion in this circumstance. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 17:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. — MimsMENTOR ^talk 17:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mims Mentor To be clear, do you want to "draftify," "keep," or is either fine? I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 17:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given its significance, I would prioritize a "keep" vote (I am not against "draftify" if the consensus favours). — MimsMENTOR ^talk 18:07, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: the article is not hurting anybody, also there's no need to wait until the last minute for a competition, pageant, tournament etc. to happen in order to have its Wikipedia article. Gianluca91 (talk) 19:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Delete per WP:CRYSTALBALL. Absolutiva (talk) 10:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of submissions for the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature

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The topic for this list is unencyclopedic. While it is possible to find a list of submitted films by year, this is trivial information – there is a major difference between being nominated (or even shortlisted) and merely being eligible. (As a comparison, would we allow a list of every Best Picture–eligible film? I suspect not even though sources exist.) See WP:INDISCRIMINATE. RunningTiger123 (talk) 05:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep: it's not indiscriminate; the inclusion criterion is clear. It's not trivial; it's rather an important topic and the lead section is clear about what it is. It's not unsourced. Saying it's unencyclopaedic seems to be a personal view. I say it's encyclopaedic because it's part of the detailed history of animation and animated film awards and it's manageable. -Mushy Yank. 10:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify at least the first point, WP:INDISCRIMINATE states that merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. While there is a clear selection criteria, that criteria is broad and conveys minimal significance. That's why I find the list indiscriminate and not suitable for inclusion. RunningTiger123 (talk) 16:35, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete also per WP:MILL and WP:NOTNEWS. There's essentially no bar for submitting eligible films, and studios generally will just submit stuff even if they have no realistic chance of winning (or even being nominated) whatsoever. While lists of eventual nominees are almost surely of sufficient notability (and noteworthiness), lists of submissions are not. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 14:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Looking at Category:Academy Awards lists, I'd recommend nominating other such submission lists for the same reasons. Of particular note are those two not-so-little subcats at the top of foreign-language film submissions, which break down even further by type. There are about an extra 200 lists in those that could stand to be mass nominated for deletion. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 15:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
~~Why did you twice remove the AfD template from the page?~~ ~~And saying it is not nominated when you just voted here is not evidently consistent...~~.. -Mushy Yank. 20:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC); edited 21:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The template was removed from List of submissions for the Academy Award for Best Animated Short Film, which has not been mentioned anywhere in this deletion discussion up to this point. It would be out of procedure to add that article to this nomination after the discussion opened. I will remove the template from that page shortly. RunningTiger123 (talk) 21:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! My bad! My apologies, 35.139.154.158! You were right and I blindly trusted the link. sorry. But who added it to the page in the first place and why??-Mushy Yank. 21:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Espngeek, why did you add it there?? -Mushy Yank. 21:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if the Animated Feature is about to be deleted, why not the Animated Short Film? Espngeek (talk) 21:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, feel free to nominate it (it might look as if you were trying to make a point, given your !vote below, but it’s your call). Still, you had added the link formatted by RunningTiger123 for this discussion to a page that was not nominated for deletion and that was quite confusing (even disruptive, I must be honest with you)! You cannot do that, I’m afraid and ”merge submissions” (bundle nominations) as you suggest below would have been possible if the nominator had wished to do so but it is not the case and in tems of procedure and good practices, your copy-paste of the template was a very bad idea. Not possible anymore with this page then. Thank you! -Mushy Yank. 21:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep What Oscar-related list do you consider important? Espngeek (talk) 15:20, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not this one, clearly, since it's up for nomination. Do you have an actual rationale behind your keep !vote, preferably addressing the concerns that have been raised by the nomimator and by me? 35.139.154.158 (talk) 15:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you're asking me, I would consider lists such as the nominees at Academy Award for Best Animated Feature or the submissions in Category:Best Foreign Language Film Academy Award submissions by country suitable for inclusion. Those films have been specifically selected for further recognition, which gives them more significance than merely checking the boxes to be eligible does. RunningTiger123 (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should I merge the submissions onto Best Animated Feature article? Espngeek (talk) 21:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To me, the issue is not whether or not this has standalone notability; the issue is that the information is so trivial that it's not worth mentioning anywhere as a matter of editorial discretion, whether that's in a standalone list or in another article/list. RunningTiger123 (talk) 21:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What makes this one so trivial? Espngeek (talk) 22:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Espngeek in short, no (see above). You would have to initiate another AfD but can I suggest you wait for this one to be closed so that we know what others think? Thanks. -Mushy Yank. 21:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: The argumment used could also be used to delete the 97 pages of the international feature films submissions, since those films were also selected for further recognition from AMPAS, and most of the countries "generally will just submit stuff even if they have no realistic chance of winning". This list is vital to map the competition, especially now that AMPAS is even more international than ever. Martineden83 (talk) 14:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to be clear – I am not arguing to delete the international feature film lists in my comment you linked. When I said "selected for further recognition", I meant that a party separate from the filmmakers (whether AMPAS or some other industry group) had picked it, instead of the filmmakers submitting it. That is a major difference between those lists and this one. RunningTiger123 (talk) 16:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, the International submissions are fine, yet the Animated Feature subs are unencyclopedic and questionably trivial? Espngeek (talk) 23:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also disagree that the international films are equivalent – those submissions were formally selected by each country's film committee, while in this list, producers can self-nominate whatever animated films they made. Reywas92^Talk 16:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if producers were capable of "self-nominate" their own movies (which they are not, the submitted films are shortlisted only after reaching the category rules), the annual list is gennerally small (last year it barely had 30 films) and does not include all animated features released in the year. Martineden83 (talk) 14:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A note on terminology since you said "shortlisted" – these are not shortlisted submissions like in other categories (example). A more apt comparison would be to compare this list to the list of films eligible for Best Picture. RunningTiger123 (talk) 04:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I see there's been disagreement about the international lists being in the same boat as this one. I'm happy to concede that point, but it doesn't really change my view about this particular list. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 17:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Carl Meyers

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Fails WP:NPOL. Being a member of Regents of the University of Michigan does not make the subject pass notability for politicians. Ibjaja055 (talk) 06:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep: Meets WP:NPOL. The Regents of the University of Michigan appear to be a statewide elected officials. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 09:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I created the article. User:Ibjaja055 either did not read the article or did not read the guideline. Meyers is a statewide elected official. Others elected to the Regents have articles: Jordan Acker, Mark Bernstein (University of Michigan), Denise Ilitch, Ronald Weiser. Wolverine MI (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wolverine MI I read the article and I also read the Guidelines. Somehow, I didn't know how I missed this There are eight regents, two of whom are elected to an eight-year term by statewide ballot every two years... as stated in the Board of Regents Election. I might have been carried away with the norms of University elections. Therefore, I am withdrawing this nomination. Ibjaja055 (talk) 12:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of Thoroughbred Racing on CBS commentators

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I'm not finding the needed coverage of these commentators as a grouping to meet the WP:LISTN. Let'srun (talk) 05:15, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment. The title is badly written but I do think sports commentators who specialize in covering horse races is an appropriate list topic under WP:NLIST. There appears to be enough of them on this one network for it to be a substantial list.4meter4 (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - this needs a large reformatting to bring it in line with standards (and maybe a re-titling), but the information contained within it seems like it adds value to the encyclopedia. Certainly offers more useful information than many of the other Category:Lists of horse racing commentators. RachelTensions (talk) 17:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Thoroughbred Racing on CBS. I could not find any sources either. The only reasonble keep would be due to the length of the parent but I don't see a reason this information couldn't just be included there. Esolo5002 (talk) 21:17, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge. I think this is an appropriate fork of Thoroughbred Racing on CBS, but I would also support a merge to that article.4meter4 (talk) 22:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Keep or merge?
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Warren Hue

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Relying on self-promotional press releases without significant coverage from independent, reliable sources. Fails WP:GNG Pridemanty (talk) 04:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment I found one good album review here: [1] He also gets a decent brief critical nod in this Pitchfork review on another artist's album on which he was a guest performer. If a few more decent references are found he could be notable. Best.4meter4 (talk) 05:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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St. John Vianney Roman Catholic Primary School

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Fails WP:NSCHOOL: nothing special about this elementary school. Other than that, it has no sources. Jinnllee90 (talk) 05:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Wisconsin Lutheran School

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Fails WP:NSCHOOL: nothing special about this elementary school. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Te Pīhopatanga o Aotearoa

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Appears to lack notability. I found only one independent reference and it is primary and provides no coverage.

I also nominating the episcopal units: Te Pīhopatanga o Te Upoko o Te Ika, Te Pīhopatanga o Manawa o Te Wheke Te Pīhopatanga o Te Tai Tokerau Te Pīhopatanga o Te Waipounamu Te Pīhopatanga o Te Tairāwhiti Traumnovelle (talk) 05:05, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Gaylord Ravenal

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I have not been able to find significant sources that talk about the subject. Jinnllee90 (talk) 04:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 November 24. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 04:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Easily passes WP:SIGCOV. Much scholarship has been published on Ferber's novel and its characters, largely because of the importance of Kern and Hammerstein's musical Show Boat which is widely recognized as a landmark musical. There is significant coverage of the character in Kreuger, Miles (1977). Showboat: The Story of a Classic American Musical. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-502275-0., Block, Geoffrey (1997). Enchanted Evenings: The Broadway Musical from Show Boat to Sondheim. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-510791-8.,Decker, Todd (2013). Show Boat: Performing Race in an American Musical. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780190250539., Blacklegs, Card Sharps, and Confidence Men: Nineteenth-Century Mississippi River Gambling Stories. LSU Press. 2010. ISBN 9780807137369. among a host of other books.4meter4 (talk) 04:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per 4meter4. When you add these refs to the article, see if you can note the most important plot differences from the musical's script that affect Gaylord's character in the 3 film versions. For example, in 1951, a much shorter period of time has gone by at the end when Ravenal returns to Magnolia and his young daughter. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Nucky Thompson

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Unfortunately, as much as i love Boardwalk Empire, Nucky doesn't passes WP:GNG, all the sources are passing mentions of the show and some don't even talk about him. My WP:BEFORE didn't help either. I am also nominating the following related pages because of similar reasons.:

Procedural close. I am finding WP:SIGCOV on several of these characters. It is going to be a headache to talk about them as a group. No prejudice in the nominator bringing them forward individually, but I strongly oppose a bundled nomination.4meter4 (talk) 04:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Titus Andromedon

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I don't think this character passes WP:GNG. Toby2023 (talk) 04:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Passes WP:SIGCOV. There's lots of queer studies lit on this character. See the following books and journal articles with character analysis: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14] Best.4meter4 (talk) 04:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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List of youngest killers

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Fails WP:NLIST and WP:No original research. While undoubtedly there are sources about child murderers as a group, the is not a List of child murderers but a "List of youngest killers". There is a subtle but important difference here. The term "youngest" is an evaluative quality and claim which doesn't match the cited literature. It's also an unstable claim that relies heavily on original research and synthesis. Maintaining this list cannot be done without engaging in original research and it should be deleted for this reason. Additionally, there are WP:MINORS and WP:BLPLIST issues with this list. 4meter4 (talk) 03:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, not because I love it, but because I think that just about everything the nom said is wrong.
- There's no difference between "child killers" and "youngest killers", except that the former introduces the question of whether the child is the perpetrator or the victim. There is a difference between "killers" and "murderers", and it's one that (a) argues in favor of "killer", as murder implies a level of comprehension that may not be warranted ([15], pg. 80), and (b) should be addressed in the WP:List selection criteria, which desperately need to be discussed, agreed upon, and pinned to the top of the talk page. But even if you thought the other title was infinitely better, that argues for a Wikipedia:Requested move, not for total deletion. We often say that deletion is WP:NOTCLEANUP, and it's not WP:MOVE, either.
- The subject does not rely on OR. Calculating an age and putting a list in numerical or chronological order is the kind of simple WP:CALCulation that is clearly permitted by the NOR policy. More importantly, it's not OR because reliable sources write about exactly this topic. See, e.g., this list-style news story titled "America's Youngest Killers". OR means that reliable sources don't say that. When we've got reliable sources actually (a) making a list of (b) the youngest killers, then it's impossible for us to claim that "List of youngest killers" is something made up by a Wikipedia editor and never published in a reliable source. There has been research on how young killers differ from older ones; for example, this New York Times article, "How Youngest Killers Differ: Peer Support", says that younger rampage killers behave differently from adults (e.g., have other kids actively encouraging them to kill someone). In other words, it's an evaluative quality that matches the literature that should have been seen in a well-conducted WP:BEFORE search.
- WP:MINORS is an essay whose advice is IMO already being complied with, and which we are free to ignore anyway. WP:BLPLIST says that the contentious claims "must be made clear by the article text and its verifiable reliable sources", which no good editor is going to object to, but which is another problem that's solved with the [Edit] button instead of the 'Delete' one. More to the point, did you look at the article content and think about what "BLP" stands for? First entry: No name, and either dead or about 135 years old. Second entry: No name, and either dead or 121 years old. Third entry: Named, but either dead or 131 years old. Fourth entry: No name, and either dead or 104 years old. Claiming that BLP prohibits this makes a mockery of the idea of a Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Glancing down through the list, up to the age of about 10, I see only a few that (a) actually include a name, (b) aren't obviously dead, and (c) don't link to a separate article with more detail. (I'm assuming that nobody's trying to say that we can have a whole article on Mary Bell, which not only describes her as "Britain's youngest female killer" but also details her being physically, emotionally, and sexually abused from birth, as well as multiple other assaults she committed, but that it's somehow worse to have her name in a list with two bland sentences naming the young boys she killed and what her initial criminal sentence was. We do need to copy the refs out of that article and into the list, though.)
Finally, where I land with this is that the page needs a proper set of list-selection criteria. That's not usually something developed in the AFD process, but I particularly recommend that an upper age limit be set, and that it be set quite low. Thousands of WP:MINORS kill people each year. I'd suggest considering a cutoff around age 10, but editors might want to look into things like how crime statistics are reported (e.g., "under age 12"). I suspect that most of the concerns about BLPs are actually about older teenagers, and I confess that I do not see much point in having a list of "youngest" that includes hundreds of people, and one-sixth were age 17 (which is a legal adult in some countries). Similarly, it will be important to decide whether the list should include homicide or only the subset that is murder. But the first step is to keep this; the details can be settled on the talk page later. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:05, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Fibras Industriales S.A.

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I am unable to find anything approaching significant coverage for this company, whose article was unsourced since its creation in 2006 until a a dubious source was added a few days ago. PROD was contested. JTtheOG (talk) 02:17, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Possibly selective merge/redirect to fishing net? As a major manufacturer of fishing nets a brief one sentence mention there might be appropriate as an WP:ATD. Otherwise fails WP:ORGCRIT and should be deleted.4meter4 (talk) 02:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 02:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Syuejia Shang Baijiao and harvesting incense

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I'm not sure if this article would stay within draftspace if I moved it there, given that the creator just moved it all over the place. Not well sourced, and a WP:BEFORE search failed. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 02:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Durham, Gibson County, Indiana

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The first in a series of rail spots in Gibson County, this is one of the clearest ones: it originally was the south end of a wye and is now the south end of a passing siding. The houses to the east of the spot didn't come along until around 1960. Mangoe (talk) 01:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - less than 160 Google Search results, some of which are due to Durham Cemetery in Gibson County. Zero results in Google News. Even in books called History of Gibson County, Durham is mentioned very rarely - this and that. starship.paint (talk / cont) 12:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cihan Erdal

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WP:BLP1E. This person is only notable for his 9-month imprisonment by the Turkish government, the news coverage of him mostly starts and ends within that period. Being one of about one hundred political prisoners caught in a government crackdown in a country that has been experiencing a democratic backsliding for over ten years now is not a very solid claim of notability. Badbluebus (talk) 01:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: I'm not sure getting arrested for your beliefs is notable. Certainly doesn't meet academic notability. Coverage is about the arrest, but I don't think that's enough for an article here. Oaktree b (talk) 01:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I notice there is some book coverage in google books by some major academic presses. For example: [16], [17], [18] The diversity of the sources and prolonged coverage over a couple years suggests that the arrest, imprisonment, and release of Cihan Erdal would pass WP:NEVENT. Perhaps repurpose this an event page instead of a WP:BLP?4meter4 (talk) 03:01, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimate Tornado

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Not sure this one-off documentary from 2006 meets notability guidelines. Happy to be proven wrong but can't find it anywhere other than in directories and mirrors. jengod (talk) 01:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Redirect to List of environmental films per WP:ATD. On a side note, this was part of a series called Ultimate Disaster. It was second of four documentaries in this series.4meter4 (talk) 02:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iosevka

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This article cites no secondary sources whatsoever, and a preliminary Google search confirms that there is only one news article covering this typeface, and it is in passing. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 01:18, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The search in question, for those curious: https://news.google.com/search?q=iosevka /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 01:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to List of monospaced typefaces per WP:ATD.4meter4 (talk) 02:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how I missed this policy. Thank you; I see this as a much better option. I'll leave this open to see what other editors think, though. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 02:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Nerdy Prudes Must Die

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A search for sources shows no sources from reliable sources; all sources are from blogs or college newspapers, neither of which are reliable. All development information is primary and thus does not indicate notability of the subject. The only third party source that shows notability is the Billboard sales performance, but this is a single source and only covering sales figures. This subject lacks SIGCOV and doesn't meet the GNG, and is better off redirected or merged as an AtD to Starkid Productions, the parent company which produced this musical. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Music, Theatre, and Visual arts. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. While this is not about the cast album but the show itself (whose cast recorded the show), the cast album did make the Billboard national chart making it pass criteria 2 of WP:NALBUM. I also found this additional review [19] Ultimately, the spirit of the WP:NALBUM SNG should apply here. This show charted so we should keep the article.4meter4 (talk) 00:33, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@4meter4 The review hails from a student-published newspaper, so that one is also unreliable. From a glance at their about page, they don't seem to have a high journalistic standard (Anyone can apply and write for them) so I'm not sure if it's usable at all.

Still, my concern is that the album itself is what's notable here, not the show it's attached to. The show received no coverage, with only the album doing so. Notability for the show is not Wikipedia:INHERITED from the album either: "notability is not inherited "up", from notable subordinate to parent."

If we were to consider the album separate from the show, and make an article solely about the album, that still wouldn't fly: "a standalone article is only appropriate when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article" and "Album articles with little more than a track listing may be more appropriately merged into the artist's main article or discography article, space permitting." Given all that exists for coverage on the album is the Billboard source, there isn't really enough to build a reasonably detailed article beyond a track listing and a line saying that the album ranked #1. No matter what outcome is taken, this subject doesn't have the sourcing to meet independent notability. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 04:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uh no. WP:NALBUM is clear that we keep all albums that place on a national chart regardless of the sourcing. That is the WP:SNG guideline. Period. University newspapers are often used on wikipedia, and are generally considered reliable. They are structured just like newspapers not attached to universities (editorial staff; both student and faculty), have the same legal recognitions under the law as professional journalists, and in this case, are over seen by a nationally recognized school of journalism. There's no reason to question the reliability of the newspaper at Boston University; particularly when its a review of theatre work. Regardless, repurposing this about the album is possible, but maybe not what best serves the encyclopedia. The content would be nearly identical and I don't see the value in differentiating between the two here as cast albums are simply audio recordings of a staged musical. 4meter4 (talk) 04:42, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@4meter4 I'm a bit confused since I was primarily citing music notability policies with my above argument, barring the usage of INHERITED. "...a standalone article is only appropriate when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article" hails from Wikipedia:NRECORDING, and "Album articles with little more than a track listing may be more appropriately merged into the artist's main article or discography article, space permitting" is from NALBUM.

While NRECORDING states that albums charting is an indicator of notability, there's nothing in these notability guidelines that state it's an instant keep. Even ignoring that, my previous argument about an album split-out still stands. There's not enough coverage of the album to be non-stubby and not just a track listing, and the musical itself doesn't inherit notability from the album that charted per INHERITED, as, inherently, the album is a separate subject from the original musical.

It's something akin to (and forgive the oddly specific example, this is the first thing I have off the top of my head) Detective Pikachu (film) and Detective Pikachu (soundtrack), where the soundtrack has individual coverage of its own development, reception, etc; it logically wouldn't include content from the film Detective Pikachu (Such as the film's plot and development) since these two subjects have inherently different coverage and subject matter, and those items from the parent subject would not be relevant to the spin-out and vice versa.

This is entirely an aside here, but is there a specific policy for college newspapers? Last I checked they were generally unreliable since they're typically student-run and edited (Meaning literally anyone can write for them and no one with proper journalistic experience if fact checking.) Perhaps it's different if the editors are entirely faculty with journalistic experience in the field, but given we can't tell what's been edited by a student or faculty member unless they outright say it for some reason, I'm not sure how reliable that would be in the long term. This isn't really me arguing against it and more just me stating my gripes; if this is clarified somewhere else please let me know because I genuinely am not familiar with that policy if it exists. I'm mostly just basing this off how we usually determine reliable sources. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 05:44, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most university newspapers have an overseeing faculty advisor/editor who works as a part of the editorial team of the paper. That faculty member is always part of the journalism faculty if a school has a journalism school. Sometimes there is more than one faculty advisor, and generally the paper doesn't get published without their approval of each issue. I think you'll find though that universities with respected papers like The Harvard Crimson, The Tufts Daily, The Cornell Daily Sun, etc. are routinely cited across the encyclopedia by just checking the "what links here" section of those articles. You'll see there are tons of articles that wikilink to those pages because they are used as sources on a routine basis. It would be a tough sell to the reliable sources noticeboard to consider a university paper not reliable when it follows the same protocols editorially as a professional newspaper.4meter4 (talk) 06:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@4meter4 as a general question: How can it be guaranteed that they receive editorial oversight from a faculty member? I know some papers often have their digital content overseen by dedicated student editors rather than faculty outright. This is obviously on a case-by-case basis, but in cases like these, how would it be determined if site content is usable? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 06:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to pursue that further, I suggest asking at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and see what they have to say. Best.4meter4 (talk) 06:08, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comment~~ Weak keep I must agree with 4m4 that the high Billboard ranking gives me pause. Doing my usual source check... Oh hey! Hayley Louise Charlesworth (February 9, 2022). "Nightmare Time and a Case Study for Digital Theatre During the COVID-19 Pandemic". Networking Knowledge: Journal of the MeCCSA Postgraduate Network (Abstract). 15 (1). Manchester Metropolitan University. Retrieved November 18, 2024.

@Darkfrog24: Do you have another link? That one isn't working, and it would be easier for others if it could be accessed here rather than through Google. I did look this up separately to check, but all that's in this journal are brief mentions that this musical got delayed due to COVID. The paper is primarily focusing on Nightmare Time, an unrelated production by StarKid, so I wouldn't really consider this source SIGCOV given Nerdy Prudes' mention here is primarily a TRIVIALMENTION in the context of Nightmare Time. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 20:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nice catch. I have fixed the link in the article. Here is a link to the article itself: [20]. Here is a link to the Google Scholar search: [21]. As always, I'll defer to people who have read the full text. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:34, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Darkfrog24 I did read the text, and I've mentioned my findings above. Do you have thoughts on this? I'm not sure trivial mentions in a paper about another series entirely really counts as SIGCOV. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, asilvering (talk) 01:12, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of serving generals of the People's Republic of China

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This list purports to include all "serving generals of the PRC", but in fact only lists 7 generals occupying some key posts. It's not at all clear that a list of all active generals in an army of 2,000,000+ personnel could ever be kept up to date. I'm not even sure that China publishes the names of all top officers.

Renaming could be an option, but it's not clear what the name would be.

Additionally, it's not really Wikipedia's core mission to provide lists of current anythings (WP:NOTDIRECTORY, WP:NOTTEMPORARY). I could imagine a more appropriate list which included all historic commanders, and gave readers a timeline of command, but that's not what this is.

FWIW, the list has been unreferenced since its inception, although I imagine this deficiency could be remedied easily enough. pburka (talk) 00:20, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, Military, and China. pburka (talk) 00:20, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep at present. Passes WP:NLIST as a clearly defined set. Also top military personnel in a major world power would be easily sourced. Making arguments about WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:NOTTEMPORARY would be more convincing if there weren't many other lists of this kind. We have a Category:Lists of active duty military personnel and the arguments being made here seem to be pertinent to all the lists currently in that category. It would be better to make this a bundled nomination if we are going to generally attack the idea of pages listing active duty military personnel. I suspect that when looked at as a group, there might be support for keeping such lists as encyclopedic. Lastly, the other argument that this is incomplete is spurious as we have policies on dynamic and incomplete lists as well as stub pages which support their inclusion and instruct editors to improve/expand coverage rather than delete them. Being incomplete is not a valid reason for deletion.4meter4 (talk) 00:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the thoughtful contribution. I shouldn't argue that the list is incomplete, but that it's ill-defined. It's not a list of all current generals, but a list of generals in selected important posts. There's no explanation of why these posts were included, and I don't see any reliable sources discussing this group of officers. However, if the content were changed to match the title, I still think it could be problematic. It's difficult to even find an estimate of how many PLA generals there are. Regarding the WP:OTHERSTUFF, we have more complete lists of the general staffs of America, Bangladesh, Britain, India, and Pakistan. I also question the encyclopedic value of these, but only brought the Chinese list to AfD because of its other deficiencies. pburka (talk) 14:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This list cannot stay the way it is. The scope given by its title is too broad and doesn't match the far more limited scope of its content. If it did, it would basically duplicate List of generals of China. Either we should move to List of current Chinese military leaders or something similar, or we should merge to List of generals of China. Toadspike [Talk] 10:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The similar lists at Category:Lists of active duty military personnel all have a more limited scope than this one. If this list is kept in some form, it should probably be split by rank and/or branch. Toadspike [Talk] 10:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 00:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Lalli

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I am unable to find anything approaching WP:SIGCOV for this former lacrosse player. Fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT. All I found were passing mentions (1, 2, 3, etc.) JTtheOG (talk) 00:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment. I know nothing about this sport but here are some more sources: [22], [23], [24], [25], [26]. I'll let others decide whether these count towards notability or not. Best.4meter4 (talk) 00:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello and thank you for your response. The first two are passing mentions and thus not significant coverage, while the next three are not independent of the subject. JTtheOG (talk) 01:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The coverage in the article combined with the more than 100 sources covering him via Newspapers.com demonstrate that the notability standard is met as a professional athlete playing at the top level of his sport. Alansohn (talk) 03:05, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please share any SIGCOV you might be able to find. JTtheOG (talk) 05:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Melee

AfDs for this article:

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The article is essentially a dictionary definition followed by an etymology of the word. This kind of content can be added to Wiktionary but Wikipedia itself is not a dictionary. I suggest deletion and moving the DAB page to primary. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Games and Military. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This page clearly extends beyond a WP:DICDEF. The terms use in a variety of contexts such as gaming extends its coverage beyond mere etymology. Passes WP:GNG.4meter4 (talk) 00:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it passes WP:GNG, then please expound on the WP:THREE best sources of significant coverage so that other people in the nomination can see for themselves. I should note that the specific definition of the medieval "melee" tournament is not what this article is actually about. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:10, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep this isn't a dictionary definition article. Instead, it's a stub article on a tactical warfare concept. SportingFlyer T·C 02:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it is, we have an article on that concept already, close-quarters battle. If you are suggesting that a melee is different than close-quarters battle, you will need to explain how, because the article even admits they are the same. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it is. Simply search "melee combat" and an additional modifier to weed out the computer game books. SportingFlyer T·C 02:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am, unfortunately, drawing a blank on outside the tabletop and video game realm. Rather than saying "wow it's so obvious", it would assist if you explained fully how melee combat is not CQB, or at least is different enough for a separate article. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've never heard about close quarters combat until right now, but I could have told you that melee combat was close range medieval combat. SportingFlyer T·C 02:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have found several sources on the form of medieval tournament, but we've got Tournament (medieval)#Melee for that. Furthermore, Melee (tournament) is the former page for that. This page still seems superfluous. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 03:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment this was previously AfD'd back in 2015 for similar rationales to the nominator. I'd recommend giving it a read to avoid any restated arguments, especially since I'm seeing a few here from both sides already. I'm personally leaning to a deletion, and then having the DAB page made primary, but I'd like to see what extent of coverage the !Keep votes (@4meter4 and @SportingFlyer) are able to turn up before I make a final assessment. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 04:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]