Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chetniks

• For more proves, find any history book about that period. I am not in possesion of proves. I am no CIA (I'm sure they have detailed files on chetniks, though). But you can easily look up yourself. Any (scientific) history book which mentions chetniks does so in a negative context. It is like asking me for a proof that nazis were war criminals. Everybody knows it. There are thousands of their victims. But you still ask for a proof. There are living vitnesses, documents, photos. In other words, it is a common truth. The links I presented are only what I was able to google in a couple of minutes. After all, my grandfather remembers the time of the occupation of his town. It was occupied by chetniks and nazis. One part of the town was controlled by nazis, the other by chetniks. They were colaborating. He saw it with his own eyes. From me personally that is the biggest proof you can get. It is also known that Belgrade was the first European city totally "cleared" of Jews (judenfrei) during the chetnik/nazi occupation. There is a document (directive) signed by Draza Mihailovic where he presents the statut of chetnik movement. He names some duties of the movement (I am paraphrasing):

1)mark the teritories that should belong to Greater Serbia(which includes Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Northern Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia - Karlovac - Virovitica, but only for the time being until the total occupation)

2) clear all of the Serbian cities and rural area of non-serbs
3) solve the "problem of muslims" by exterminating them
4) destroy every member of minority (from children to elders) in order to make more space for Serbs
5) clear the teritory of Sandzak from muslim population
6) clear the teritory of Bosnia from Croat and muslim population
7) create Greater Serbia, ethnically clean state

I have seen a copy of this document numerous times in history books and elwhere. These are only some points of the declaration of statut of chetnik movement. After all, I am not archive of Nürnberg Tribunal or Simon Wiesenthal Center. For other proves go to the library or ask Germans. They know the best.

• The poster below is showing his or her violation of NPOV pretty clearly. Articles that are presenting certain facts that someone finds inconvenient or unpleasant should not be subject to deletion debates.

First, the scull and cross bones appeared frequently in WWI military uniforms. It is particularly noteable that they appeared in the uniforms of the Russian anti-communist White Army, which has a strong resemblance to the Chetniks ideologically. Even the Chetnik slogan "Freedom or Death" is remeniscent of the Russian provisional gov't and white army slogan "Victory or Death". Your picture which claims to be of Ustase and Chetniks has no verification behind it. I would like to see a lot more than just one picture before you can state your claim fairly, plus some REAL HISTORICAL EVIDENCE to prove that these sides collaborated with each other (should be really easy to find if as you claim this was so well documented for decades, from an NPOV).

• Revise this crap. Its all Bullshit

Chetnics were domestic colaborationists of nazis what you are able to see from those photos.

Cetniks of Draze Mihailovic and Musolinis Italian fascists soldiers Here

Cetniks handing over a partizan prisonner to the German Nazis forces Here

A group of cetniks and behind them one Nazi officer Here

Cetnik Radic with German officers [1]]

Every history book in the world can confirm that. Their leaders were regularly decoratedd with Hitler's Iron Cross. They had "escadrons of death", which executed operations for Germans against civilian populations of Yugoslavia. They killed Jews, Bosnians, Gypsies, Croats and uncooperating Serbs, of which there were many. Their symbol was a scull and two crossed bones (here). Here is a picture of chetniks, ustashas and nazis having a joined celebration. Here is a picture of them slaughtering a Bosnian civilian. All this is documented and known for decades. After the war, just like their fellow nazis, chetniks had to change their names and disappear all over the world. Some of them were captured and put on trial. Others were never found. Nazis used them also when they needed more men. They would occupy a city and give one part to chetniks to hold. Chetniks are known to be very loyal to nazis. I propose the article in it's entirety is deleted.

This page is filled with historical non-sense. It denies the connections between Chetniks and Nazis, for which they were convicted after WWII. Chetniks have commited and are proven to be connected with nazis.

As for modern ages. Chetniks have killed ten's of thousands of people in former Yugoslavia in their attempt to make it "Great Serbia". These nationalists, when failed in their attempt, and lost the war, are obviously now attempting to brainwash people through internet.

Views expressed in this article are not the history as civilized world sees it. Chetnik's "greatest vojvoda" Draza Mihajlovic was convicted for war crimes.

Vojislav Seselj, present vojvoda, is Wanted by the ICTY court for war crimes in former yugolsavia, organising camps for muslims and catholics, rapes, slaugter,...

i could go on forever with this. I propose the entire article is deleted, for it is better to have nothing on this subject than this attempt of NAZI propaganda.

• This is a NPOV dispute, not cause for deletion. Old versions of the article may just be seen better to User:Jure. --Joy [shallot] 11:45, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, this meets no criteria for deletion. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:59, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, agree with Joy and Sam. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:48, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Mark it POV and Keep Dsmdgold 22:59, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Giddytrace 00:38, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Keep but do something about the nazi propaganda. (Its me foant) Foant 14:46, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, as I think history is written by the victorious side, and as the partisans won, the Chetniks will have suffered some unfair discredition. On the otherhand, we should not let out the downside of their history. However, to claim the groups who call themselves Chetniks of the late 20th century Yuguslav war as heirs to the old Chetniks wont make sense. --Ameer 14:33, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and revise. Brutulf 16:30, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

The Chetniks were ALLIES of the West! They were NOT Nazi collaborators.

The leaders of the Chetniks were supported by the West, and were abandoned only because they refused to kill Germans. The reason behind this was because for every German killed, 100 Serbs would be killed. At one point, the Germans rounded up an Elementary school of Serbian children and killed them all. Over 50 children were killed in that one incident. The Chetniks realized that by killing Germans, they were killing their own. So they held back. The West shifted its support to the Partisans who did not care about retaliation. However, Truman and many other western leaders still decorated the leader of the Chetniks - Draza Mihailovich - as a hero that saved many lives and fought against fascism. To call the Chetniks a Nazi originzation is a lie. It was a lie created by Tito and the communists in Yugoslavia in order to tarnish the legend of the Chetniks. Tito and the communists could not allow the Chetniks to be heros. They would do anything to tarnish their image. And so a terrible lie was created.

Mihailovich was also awarded the Medal of Honor by the congress. They are often cited as one of the most important armies that helped defeat the Nazis. Before the Partisans, the Chetniks fought the Germans. If not for the Chetnik's courage early in the war, the Germans would've easily crushed the people of the Balkans.

Hm...I'd say this entire "debate" is OT. Whether Chetniks saved some US airmen from being catched by Germans-seems a trifling. Airmen would have otherwise ended as POWs-end of story, nothing heroic nor tragic.

BUT- the main issue is that Chetniks waged genocidal war against Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians. That's the real issue. They even killed more Serbs in the Knin area during WW2 than ustaše and partisans combined did. This is the central theme- NOT the extent of Chetnik collaboration with Germans and Italians (interesting subject, but essentially- marginal), but Chetnik ideology and practice geared into the realization of Greater Serbia goals. Mir Harven 09:15, 9 May 2005 (UTC)