Talk:Swedes/Archive 1

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See also Talk:Ethnic Swedes.

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Pictured Swedes

I think it's time to change the pictured Swedes in this article. Right now it's only Swedes from Sweden in it, but I think at least some Finland Swedes should be included. I also propose that there should be 12 people pictured just like in White American or African American. Having 18 like in Spanish people or 27 in French people is probably too many. My proposal is this:

1. Bridget of Sweden
2. Carl Linnaeus
3. Anders Celsius
4. Alfred Nobel
5. Selma Lagerlöf
6. Dag Hammarskjöld
7. Greta Garbo
8. Tove Jansson
9. Ingmar Bergman
10. Björn Ulvaeus
11. Linus Torvalds
12. Annika Sörenstam

As you can see I've also tried to add more women than in the current picture. Any other suggestions? Närking (talk) 09:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I would change Tove Jansson to Astrid Lindgren. ☺ Spiby ☻ 10:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I also think that Astrid Lindgren would be a good candidate, but at the same time I think Tove Jansson would be a good candidate representing the Swedes in Finland. Having both is probably not possible if we stick with 12 people. Maybe you have other suggestions also? Närking (talk) 11:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, Torvalds is also a Swedish-Finn, do we need two? Lindgren is (as far as I know) much more popular than Jansson in Sweden. I don't have any other suggestions, and I think the list you suggested is very good and well balanced. ☺ Spiby ☻ 10:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, why not two out of twelve? I think the Finland-Swedes have and still has an important contribution to the Swedish culture. And why not enlighten the world that the Moomins speak with a nice Finland-Swedish dialect?! :) Närking (talk) 13:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, they speak findlandssvenska (so do I), but if you want a selection of only 12 people you'll have to leave some important people out. I still think Lindgren should be chosen rather than Jansson. ☺ Spiby ☻ 14:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I mean, since they are both female writers it won't upset the nice balance you've made in the list. Also, since Torvalds is a Swedish-Finn you don't have to worry about leaving the Swedish-Finns out. ☺ Spiby ☻ 06:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Alright, let's go for Astrid Lindgren. I will make the new picture now. Närking (talk) 07:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Now it's there. Hope it looks OK. Närking (talk) 07:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Nice :) ☺ Spiby ☻ 07:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :) Närking (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Well done :) Nice mix of people and enough woman :) — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 21:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I would like to strongly disapprove the notion and the idea that Linus Torvalds represents the Swedish ethnos. Such a claim is colonialistic and analogous to such claims as "George W. Bush is a famous Englishman/German", or "Kent is mostly a Finnish rock band" or dismissing the German-speaking Swiss as Germans. Linus Torvalds represents the Swedish SPEAKING minority of Finland, his true ethnicity remains debatable. We should ask him how he feels about the question instead of adding him random labels. My suggestion is to remove him from the weird picture cavalcade for now. Clarifer (talk) 11:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

This is an article about Swedish people not Swedish citizens. That's why the Swedes in Finland is mentioned in the table and Swedish citizens like Ara Abrahamian and Vladimir Smirnov are not included in the figure of Swedes in Sweden. Närking (talk) 11:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

You seem to have completely missed the point. Please state a reference to the claim that Linus Torvalds feels that he is a member of the Swedish ethnicity or as you put it the 'Swedish people'. Such an automation would suggest that all Swiss people speaking German as their mother tongue would also be included in the German ethnicity just like that. Clearly this is not the case. As with most multilingual nations the case is much more complicated and controversial and cannot be dealt with simplifications and certainly not by randomly assigning people to certain ethnicities based on third party personal beliefs or interpretations. Please update your knowledge on these issues. For further information about the 'finlandssvenskar', please read e.g. this pamphlet by Svenska Finlands folkting: [1]. Clarifer (talk) 16:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Once again read the article which is about the "Swedish people", not about "Swedish citizens". As you can see it's not I who have invented it as you seem to think. As you perhaps know Sweden was divided 200 years ago, some Swedes ended up in the Russian empire and some remained in what was left of Sweden. This article also states that there are 290,000 Swedes in Finland so it not strange to have Linus Torvalds in the picture cavalcade. Närking (talk) 18:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure you know what you are talking about? The fact that Ireland used to be part of the English kingdom doesn't make English-speaking Irishmen at all English by ethnicity. No one would dare call an English-speaking Irishman an Englishman! The very thought would be offensive to many. This is only one example of how multilingual nations come to terms with their history, demographics and language groups. Many more examples exist. You automatically assuming that Linus Torvalds regards himself a Swede by ethnicity makes you look very provincial and truly ignorant on issues regarding Finland, Finns and Finland-Swedes. Clarifer (talk) 19:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Please note that a Finland-Swede took part in the discussion above. And once again read the article. It will explain everything as I've said several times. Närking (talk) 19:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

As I pointed out before, there is variation in an ethnical self-identification throughout the globe and the ideas of one Finland-Swede will not tell much about the possible self-identification of another Finland-Swede. There's nothing in the article to further explain why the Finland-Swede Linus Torvalds' picture is among the pictures of SWEDES. This is highly questionable conduct and I want to point this out clearly so that everyone sees this. Linus Torvalds is a Finland-Swede. The identity of this group (=ethnicity?) is something different from a Swede and is typically more or less comparable to the situation between a "German-speaking Swiss" and a German, a "Dutch-speaking Belgian" i.e. a Flemish person and a Dutchman, an "English-speaking Irishman" and an Englishman, a French-speaking Quebecer and a Frenchman... the list is endless. I repeat my suggestion of removing Linus Torvalds from the confusing (even somewhat offensive) tableau. Clarifer (talk) 14:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

This article is about the swedish ethnic group. This article is not about Swedish citizens. You are correct when saying that Swedish-Finns are not Swedish citizens (there are exeptions though). The ethnic group of Swedish-Finns descend from the Swedish people. When Finland and Sweden meet in icehockey or football, Swedish-Finns support Finland, because we are Finnish citizens. However, Swedish-Finns speak the swedish language, and many young Swedish-Finns move to Sweden to study. You cannot deny the ethnic bond to Sweden, even though you correctly state some people would feel offended by this. ☺ Spiby ☻ 10:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Hej. I am questioning whether Your personal sentiments are really representing the sentiments of the majority of Finland-Swedes (or Swedish-speaking Finns or Finnish Swedophones whichever might be the best word in the English language). I think most Finland-Swedes feel just that: they are Finland-Swedes and NOT Swedes. Like German-speaking Swiss are first and foremost Swiss (i.e. representing a German speaking "SWISS ethnicity" whatever that is) and not at all German. There might be a difference between Aboland and Nyland and Österbotten I'm not sure... Also: The bulk of the Swedish settlement in Finland dates back around 700-500 years! Saying that the Finland-Swedes of today are Swedes is like saying that the English-speaking Americans are Englishmen or Irishmen. It just doesn't work out like that. Clarifer (talk) 18:50, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

When you put it like that... Might aswell remove Torvalds and add someone else. There are plenty of real Swedes to chose from ;) ☺ Spiby ☻ 16:01, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Comparing with Switzerland has no point here. It´s a totally different history. Why don't you check the article about Russians instead?

And do you want to continue to erase the Finland-Swedes from the infobox and article as well?

And by the way I happen to be in Mariehamn right now and I can tell you I haven't been in a more Swedish town than this! I would find more signs of Finns in many towns in Sweden than here! Närking (talk) 19:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

???Who said anything about the Alanders? It does indeed come to knowing the history of a particular geographic area and its people and understanding it. There are several analogies to choose from and the story of Finland is a unique one in its own right. Why don't You try and learn about Finnish history instead? Finland-Swedes of course are Swedophone. No-one argues against this. A common language is a unifying theme with a former Sweden (and much less with the contemporary Swedes) just like a common language reveals plenty of things regarding the Irish history. In the end, it comes very much to the individual how s/he defines his/her ethnicity. To my own experiences (that are well represented by Finlands Svenska Folkting) the most common way to understand finlandssvenskhet is: it represents a minority worth maintaining and it represents an own kind of Finnishness expressed in the Swedish mother tongue. The Swedes (as an ethnic group) are fairly far in the row in all this. I'm not denying the LINGUISTIC link between Swedes and Finland-Swedes but I am highly questioning that a categorical ETHNIC link between these groups is a reality (today). Such an automation represents the obsolete national romantic ideas of the 19th century when language and people were thought to travel hand-in-hand through all eternity and form rigid "peoples" or "nations". Please remove poor Linus from the picture calvalcade. ;) Clarifer (talk) 12:33, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

And whilst you are there, please remove Tove Jansson too. I am a Swedish-speaking Finn, and I don't identify with being from Sweden. Of course, through language and history, I feel a stronger bond with Sweden than e.g. China or Malawi - especially culturally. But I am sure this is a similar story for a French-speaking Belgian with France etc. 94pjg (talk) 22:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, as I said each country has it's unique history so a comparison with the Swiss German has no point here. It's important to know the history. 200 years ago there were mainly two ethnic groups living in Sweden: Swedes and Finns. The Swedes in Västergötland and Södermanland were as much Swedes as the ones in Österbotten or Nyland. Then by war the eastern part of Sweden happened to come under Russian rule and the Swedes and Finns living in the eastern provinces were separated from Sweden. A similar thing has happened to many Russians today when they have ended up in other countries without moving.

And you haven't answered my question if you want to delete the Finland-Swedes from the article. If the Finland-Swedes are mentioned in the article and infobox it's also logical that one of them can be pictured. And what was your remark about the Ålanders? Do you consider them Swedish but not the rest of the Swedes in Finland?

And once again this is not an article about Swedish citizens. And Finland-Swedes have continued to have close cultural ties with Sweden also during Russian and Finnish government. And as said above it's also very common for Finland-Swedes to study, and later also work in Sweden. Many also work in both countries like one of the best Swedish and Finnish stand-up comedians André Wickström. Närking (talk) 06:59, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it is not possible to speak of Swedish or Finnish ethnicity when referring to 18th century fishers or small-scale farmers, who spoke their regional dialects and did not really know the concept of national identity.--130.234.68.225 (talk) 11:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Whilst Your examples about working (or studying or living in Sweden) are sort of endearing, I think it is common knowlegde that working in a certain place doesn't necessary make anyone ETHNICALLY anything unless one starts defining oneself anew. Please wake up. It has already been a) 500-700 years since most settlers from Scandinavia entered today's Finland and b) 200 years since Finland became autonomous. Plenty of time for a unique ethnogenesis on both occasions. Clarifer (talk)

I'd like to point out that the article does not define who comprise the Swedish people. The article does not claim that Finland-Swedes are or are not part of the "Swedish people." How on earth could you say whether Linus Torvalds should or should not be included? (Basically an article without a definition is shit, but I'll refrain from using such language.) Samulili (talk) 09:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The present-day Swedish-speaking Finns certainly have linguistic continuity from the pre-1809 Kingdom of Sweden, but you can hardly speak of ethnic continuity. Ethnicity refers to concious identity, and the identity of Swedish-speakers in Finland has been transformed by nationalism, Finnish independency, language strife, contemporary regionalism etc. While some Swedish-speakers in Finland are willing to identify themselvers as ethnic Swedes, this seems to be a minority position. Majority or at least a significant portion of the Swedish-speaking Finns identify themselves as Finns with special relation and affinity to Sweden. (Of course, they should be perfectly free and entitled to identify themselves as Swedes, Cherokee or Martians if they wish to do so.) Unfortunately, some Swedish editors keep confusing language and distant historic origins with ethnicity.--130.234.68.225 (talk) 11:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Linus Torvalds is not Swedish!!!! Swedish-speaking Finns are a linguistic minority, not an ethnic one! Only Ålanders are ethnic Swedes. ----Lilyserbia (talk) 12:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

What a stupid statement. Why would people in the Aland Islands be any more or less Swedish than other Finland Swedes resident in say Närpes or Raseborg (both with Swedish speaking populations over 80% of the total and present since the middle ages)? If this article is about ethnic Swedes then Linus can be included in the list just as well as any Swede from Sweden. Another question is weather this whole article is legitimate/relevant. What is ethnicity? How do you deffine it? Is the term usable in today's multicultural world? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.16.230.86 (talk) 16:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The Åland Islands are isolated from the rest of Finland. If the Swedish borders were redrawn and Lund where I live now suddenly became a part of Germany would this make me German? I may be a German citizen but am I ethnically German? Even though I still watch the same Swedish TV, still read the same Swedish papers and still live the same Swedish life. And even Ålanders often recognise that they have their own identity as Ålanders (mostly since Sweden has changed more than they have). Swedish-speaking Finns are just that - Swedish-speaking Finns. They were raised in Finland in a Finnish society. They speak Finnish and aren't ignorant of what's happening in Finnish-speaking Finland. Ethnicity is about identifying with one another. And as an ethnic Swede I do not identify with Swedish-speaking Finns and the ones I've met don't identify fully with me either - they have their own unique Finnish-Swedish identity. They should have their own ethnic group page. --Lilyserbia (talk) 00:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

As a Swede I've often thought about how to label Finland-Swedes (as they call them-selves) and more importantly how they want me to label them. All Finland-Swedes that I have had an opportunity to actually ask (all middle aged or older, haven't had the opportunity to ask younger unfortunately) have quite strongly underlined that they are not Finnish but Swedes while born and living in Finland under Finnish citizenship. Some have even became a bit upset when asked why they don't regard them-selves as Finnish (since Swedes in a way do just that). A few answers I've got is for instance along the lines of quote: "we have the same Swedish traditions as in Sweden rather than actual Finns in the rest of Finland, we speak Swedish as our mother tongue, we originate from Sweden and we have to learn Finnish in the same way as you would in Sweden i.e. as a foreign language". Some even said that "the Finns don't like us for haven's sake and give us names like /hurri/". Something like that. I was kind of surprised actually over how clear they were on the matter and how they seemed to see me as an ignorant Sweden-Swede for "not knowing better". Whether this represents a true picture of how most Finland-Swedes view them-selves is certainly not for me to say. But I think it is quite clear that you can't compare the Finland-Swede vs. Swedish situation with say the Swiss vs. German situation. I'm pretty confident most Swiss people wouldn't agree with them being regarded as German while the Finland-Swedes at least to some extent seem to regard them-selves as Swedes in a whole number of ways and even becoming upset at the thought of me suggesting that they are Finnish rather than Swedish. Well, food for thought.

Linus Torvalds

Linus Torvalds is not a Swede. I'm a Swede but Torvalds isn't. --130.243.148.186 (talk) 10:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

He is one of those 290,000 Finland-Swedes also listed in the infobox. Närking (talk) 15:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

But he's still not a Swede. Also Americans and Canadians of Swedish descent are mentioned in the infobox, but I cannot find pictures of Joe Hill or Charles Lindbergh. The infobox seems to list all groups of partial Swedish ancestry, wheras the pictures include only ethnic Swedes of non-immigrant origin and, for some reason, one Swedish-speaking ethnic non-Swede (Torvalds).--130.234.68.224 (talk) 08:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

In the previous picture we had Ann-Margret for example. And in this one we have Greta Garbo. Närking (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Garbo and Ann-Margret were actually born in Sweden. Most Americans of Swedish descent (or Swedish-speaking Finns) are not. They cannot be directly compared with people of Swedish birth. Ethnicity does not reside in ancestry.--130.234.68.224 (talk) 13:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

And yet you mentioned Joe Hill... But the figure is the infobox is wrong anyway. The figure should be closer to the one in Swedish Wikipedia. And the question about Finland-Swedes have been discussed many times above, no need to take it all over again. Närking (talk) 20:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, yeah. If Linus Torvalds is pictured in the infobox gallery, why not Joe Hill as well? But obviously it would be best solution if the infobox included only pictures of people whose Swedish identity is beyond reasonable doubt. There is a multitude of Swedish celebrities to choose from.--130.234.68.225 (talk) 07:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Garbo is far more known than Joe Hill. And I also think there needs to be some women there, not only men. And there also should be people from different times and areas as well. Närking (talk) 07:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but the question still remains why Linus Torvalds is included, as it is contestable whether he can be identified as a ethnic Swede. It seems that "Swedishness" has two different levels: Swedish ethnic identity and the special relationship with Sweden arising from shared language, cultural ties and historic origins; this does, however, include self-identification as a Swede. The latter seems to be an adequate description of the contemporary finlandssvensk identity. It is certainly reasonable to describe both levels of "Swedishness" in this article - it would be silly to deny that Swedish-speaking Finns are closely related to Swedes - but the two levels should not be confused.--130.234.68.225 (talk) 07:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

This article is about Swedes, in the ethnic sense, therefore the inclusion of Linus Torvalds in fully legitimate. Mainland-Swedes do not have a monopoly over Swedishness, and this article is not about "People from Sweden" it's about Swedes, where-ever they are, eg. those who speak Swedish as first language and share Swedish cultural traditions. Finland-Swedes are ethnic Swedes just as Åland islanders, they are not "from Sweden", but definitely part of the greater Swedish nation. Americans of Swedish descent cannot be compared to Finland-Swedes (the term Swedish-speaking Finn is just a hoax) since they usually do not have a knowledge of Swedish-language, Finland-Swedes are Swedes in the very ethnic sense of the word. In regards to Tove Jansson, her father is a Finland-Swede and mother Mainland-Swede from the state of Sweden.

Someone mentioned the word "colonialism" here. I think would be very pityfull and ultra-nationalistic if we would allow Mainland-Swedes to have a monopoly over the picture gallery of Swedes and thus the Swedish culture. I definitely propose we add Tove Jansson picture in the list. We could also include Ostrobotnian Swede, Anders Chydenius who was recently ranked as the most 17th important Swede (Historiens 100 viktigaste svenskar, 2008)

Here's a direct citat from a late Finland-Swedish juridical scholar, professor emeritius of international law, Tore Modeen, defining the Swedish nationality:

"......They (Åland islanders) belong to the Swedish ethnic community, together with the Swedes of Sweden, and the Swedes of Finland of which Åland islanders are a part.

Another thing is that the inhabitants of the Åland island without any doubt form a specific group within the Swedish nation, with their own folklore and dialects and their specific group within the Swedish nation. But there are other Swedes who form differing groups, as the Scanians with their Danish history, and the Ostrobotnians (of Western Finland) keeping themselves apart from other Finnish Swedes and more oriented towards the West than the Swedes of Southern Finland"

(The cultural rights of the Swedish ethnic group in Finland, Europa Ethnica, 3-4 1999,jg.56. A Citat by Finland-Swedish academic Leif Höckerstedt (2000) would also be in place,

""Det är naturligt att betona Sverige-kontakten då man gör en analys av finlandssvenskarnas språk, kommunikation och historia. Ideologiskt kommer det att närma sig Axel Olof Freudenthals bygdesvenskhet och Sverige närheten kring sekelsskiftet. Finlandssvenskarna är ju helt enkelt svenskar, närmare bestämt östsvenskar". I guess, the only problem we have here are the ultra-nationalistic Finns who oppose the inclusion of Tove Jansson and Linus Torvalds in the picture section, very unfortunate.Podomi (talk) 10:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I was also thinking of Anders Chydenius and of course also Tove Jansson (by the way she is always mentioned in books about Swedish literature history, just like Runeberg etc). I wanted to include Swedes from different areas (not only from the country of Sweden since this article is about ethnic Swedes and not citizens of Sweden) and different times. And there should also be a good mix between men and women. There are still fewer women, but otherwise I think it's good mix. Närking (talk) 12:38, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are serious problems in Podomi's comment. Podomi is certainly entitled to identify him/herself as a ethnic Swede, and that should be respected! However, Podomi is less entitled to generalize his strong personal identity as a norm and present insensitive blanket statements concerning all Swedish-speaking Finns, some of whom are very reluctant to identify themselves as "Swedes" and are easily offended by such suggestions. The Swedish-speaking identity in Finland is simply much too complicated to be described in black-and-white terms of nationalist bigotry. The conscious Swedish identity is really the only thing that constitutes the Swedish ethnicity. Language does not determinate ethnicity by itself. If someone does not identify him/herself as an ethnic Swede, it is rather sick to label him/her as a Swede. No competent historian would do so (the primordial theory of ethnicity is obsolete in all humanities and social sciences). Of course, if someone can present sources proving that Linus Torvalds or late Tove Jansson do (did) consider themselves as Swedes, then they are Swedes - no problems about that. But that should be proven, not just assumed.--18:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

My argument is sound and solid. This article is about Swedes, whereever they are. This article is not about politics nor Finns propagating their low national self-esteem. What source does claim that Finland-Swedes do not consider themselves as ethnic Swedes? Ofcourse they do, they do not consider themselves "from Sweden", but the goup who identify themselves with the term finlandssvensk, certainly consider themselves as ethnic Swedes with Swedish cultural traditions.

Excuse me, but I am going erase that BS regards to Finland-Swedish ethnic identity in the article. Folktinget as a state-financed political board does not have any credibility on the issue, and more important their "research" does not state that Finland-Swedes would not identify themselves as ethnic Swedes, it only states that the national identity of Finland-Swedes is two-fold, between Finnish and Finland-Swedish nationality (not to be confused with the concept of "citizenship"). However, there's no mention about ethnic identity. Hopefully this article will not be sabotaged by bunch of Ultra-nationalistic fascist. Big thanks to Närking who has showed courage and tolerance and not subjected to nationalistic idea of national state and its alleged monopoly over certain culture. Such logic does have foundations in 21th century Europe.

"Of course, if someone can present sources proving that Linus Torvalds or late Tove Jansson do (did) consider themselves as Swedes, then they are Swedes - no problems about that", both Linus and Tove identifies/identified themselves with the term (finlands)svensk, incase you disagree that that concept of "finlandssvensk" equals something else than a ethnic Swedish folkgroup in Finland, then you are responsible for the burden of proof.

"In Finland this question (Swedish nationality) has been subjected to much discussion. The Finnish majority tries to deny the existence of a Swedish nationality. An example of this is the fact that the statutes always use the concept 'Swedish-speaking'", Tore Modeen, The cultural rights of the Swedish ethnic group in Finland (Europa Ethnica, 3-4 1999,jg.56).Podomi (talk) 09:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Your "argument" is nothing but an aggressive assertion of personal wishes and hopes. Your astonishing ethnic fervour with its openly racist (neo-Nazi?) features is generally alien to the moderate stance adopted by most Swedish-speakers in Finland. You keep quoting hard-line ethno-nationalist pamphlets as if they were a fair and balanced presentation of finlandssvensk identity. Most of the Swedish-speakers in Finland seem to be simply too civilized to give much value to the ideological garbage of nationalism. Regarding of Torvalds and Jansson, the burden of proof remains yours, as nothing suggests so far that they considered themselves as ethnically Swedish individuals. Apparently there are not one but several Swedish-speaking identities in Finland: none of them is superior to any other. No one here is denying your (or any others') basical right to identify yourself as a Swede, but that is not a identity discourse adopted by all Swedish-speakers in Finland, especially in bilingual environments of bigger towns. You know that very well.--130.234.68.221 (talk) 10:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I apologize if approached the topic too aggressively, sincerely. Anyway, I think you have rather biased view of Finland-Swedes of general. After all, finlandssvensk as a term implies Swedish ethnic group in Finland. In most parts of Svenskfinland, finlandssvenskar refer themselves as bluntly svenskar, Swedes and retain close connections to Mainland-Sweden.I am afraid you are confusing ethnicity to politics.

"Idén att svenskarna inte delas av statsgränsen var vanligt förr och det är fortfarande i svenskbygden med nära kontakt till Sverige.” - Leif Höckerstedt, 2000

However, I would still emphasize that is article is not about Swedish state, but Swedish ethnicity, aka. Swedish people, and these people have been/are present in Estonia, Sweden and Finland.

"Svenskarna på andra sidan bottenhavet",http://www.svd.se/kulturnoje/understrecket/artikel_1892511.svdPodomi (talk) 07:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It is difficult to confuse ethnicity and politics, as ethnicity does not really exist outside of politics. Ethnicity is always a identity-political choice; ethnic identity means that you choose to identify yourself with a constructed group. Ethnicity is a strong part of your identity exactly because it is more or less a choice. Please, read less nationalistic pamphlets and more social sciences and history.--130.234.68.224 (talk) 14:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Racism

Now, this page annoys me for a number of reasons. For one the Swedish government makes no official policy on "ethnic Swedes" and all Swedish citizens are considered Swedes. Very few Swedes don't consider Zlatan to be Swedish - he himself considers himself to be 100% Swedish - so it's a bit of a joke that he's not allowed on this page for the simple fact that his parents were foreigners. But ok, I can ignore this since I understand why it's done. But what I can't ignore is the double-standard when it comes to saying who is Swedish. Why isn't Henrik Larsson Swedish? Is it because he's dark-skinned? Is it because his dad is an immigrant? Is he then half ethnic-Swede? It's ok if you feel this way... but then Ingrid Bergman isn't Swedish either. Her father was GERMAN making her only half-ethnic Swede and she therefore doesn't belong on this page. Anyone want to explain this to me? Suble racism if I ever saw it. This is something which needs to be changed. --Lilyserbia (talk) 06:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is pretty obvious that an indengious European person can't be part of for instance the Maasai ethnic group right? If an indengious ethnic European couple, or Chinese for that matter, moved to northern Iraq were they had a child, the child wouldn't then be a Kurd would it? Citizenship and ethnicity is to completly different things. For citizens of Sweden see Demographics of Sweden. Just because the Swedish ethnic group happen to be the main component of a state, it doesn't deprive them of being an ethnic group. -GabaG (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

There's only one person in the world that can identify someone's ethnicity, and that is that person himself. If this child in northern Iraq considers himself (herself?) Kurdish, then he is Kurdish. Nobody else can decide his identity. The same goes of course for all other ethnicities. Aaker (talk) 20:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Gabagool, that's what I'm saying. This is made to be the page for ethnic Swedes whilst there is no page for Swedes as a whole. And no, the "Demographics of Sweden" is only a segregating article since it doesn't differentiate between those raised in Sweden who see themselves as Swedish and people from foreign ethnic groups just living here a couple of years. Ethnicity is at best a very vague term. I sure as hell identify more with someone raised in Sweden than someone raised in Finland of Swedish descent (Linus Torvalds) who is apparently "ethnically" Swedish. Ethnicity has to do with relation to each other in a group. Now, that brings me to my second point and the fact that you completely ignored the second part of my statement. Why is Ingrid Bergman ethnically Swedish if Henrik Larsson is not? RACISM is the ONLY reason. Both have one foreign parent. --Lilyserbia (talk) 16:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Who says Henrik Larsson isn't Swedish? I don't think I've ever heard a more Swedish name. Aaker (talk) 18:54, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry I ignored your point. These questions are anyways complicated. But I would say they are both half ethnic Swedish if what you're stating about them is true. But I don't know if it really is "racism" as you said, it is more the fact that the German and Swedish ethnic group are very closely related, in contrast to the Cape Verdean (if I'm correct) and Swedish. -GabaG (talk) 20:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Swedish ethnicity is definitely a multi-faceted expression. However, I wouldn't confuse artificial state borders in this. Stefan Ingves for example, the head of Swedish central bank, was born and raised in unilingually Swedish municipality of Närpes Finland, as teenager he moved to Sweden, he is part of the Swedish ethnic group of Finland but today probably has even Swedish citizenship. Tove Jansson was a half Finland-Swedes (father) and half Mainland-Swedish, an ethnic Swede as well.Podomi (talk) 16:48, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

According to what source Tove Jansson did consider herself as a ethnic Swede? Her personal identity and nothing else determined whether she was a ethnic Swede or not. And I am not saying here that she might not have considered herself as a Swede; it would not be very surprising if she did. But I do seriously think that it is irresponsible and regressively nationalistic to assume so if there is no evidence for it. Ethnicity has a residence only in your head and heart; not in your genes or in your language.--130.234.68.224 (talk) 13:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

We are speaking of Ethnic-Swedes, not politics. Tove Jansson as an unilingually Swedish would fall as a "Swede" for most people. Ethnicity cannot be dictated by geography either. Incase you disagree that a Swede who was born to a Swedish mother is something else than an ethnic-Swede, feel free to provide sources.Podomi (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

So you do not address my arguments at all. Why do you babble about "geography", when my point lies elsewhere? And when we discussing about ethnicity, we are always discussing about politics too, as ethnicity is immanently political: ethnicity has meaning only in political situations and choices related to ethnic identity always have political implications. As I have explained over and over again (and you have refused to understand, preferring your own kind of authoritarian and racially based primordial nationalism), ethnicity is a mental state (an expression borrowed from historian Guy Halsall). It just does not matter much what "most people" think; only Tove Jansson's personal thoughts could determine whether she was a Swede. Her language or her mother's native country do not determine anything. If you claim that Jansson considered herself as a Swede, the burden of proof lies on you. Maybe she did, but so far heva no sources.--130.232.202.241 (talk) 12:08, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyone that seriously believe that ethnicity is only a "mental state" can't be anything else than completly brainwashed by culture radical and marxist ideology which among other horrible things seek in their wet dream to exterminate all existing human diversity (well, at least all peoples in the Western world anyways, I have never heard any far-leftist saying anything about depriving indeginous African, Asian or American peoples of their heritage). If this were true, all the different "people" articles on Wikipedia would have to be deleted because it would have no meaning whatsoever. -GabaG (talk) 13:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I think there's a lot old-school hegelism/nationalism we are seeing. Jansson ofcourse considered herself as a Swede, a Finland-Swede/finlandssvensk to be more precise. Same goes with Linus Torvalds. This article is about people who are native Swedish-speakers and shares Swedish cultural heritage, usually these people come with a Swedish name as well.Podomi (talk) 07:32, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Then let's have a source and be done with this. Who emails Mr. Torvalds? Ms. Jansson would probably be harder to reach these days. There are plenty of examples to the contrary anyway. For example none of the Swedish-speaking Finns / Finland Swedes I know consider themselves Swedes even though this includes townsfolk from very small Ostrobothnian localities such as Kronoby (83% Swedish speaking) and Larsmo (92%) with very basic skills in Finnish. Typically, the Swedish speakers I know don't even think about these things in such an overly categorical way. However, when asked the usual "hierarchy" of group identities is typically: 1. finlandssvensk which is a Finnish identity on the same level as e.g. Laplander, Karelian or so. 2. Finnish like the linguistic majority. 3. That of a Nordic country (and Nordic is NOT in the Hitlerian racial way but relating to the countries cooperating in the Nordic council). Sure, it is easier to read Swedish newspapers and watch Swedish television and go to the university in Sweden because of the language BUT this has very little to do with an ETHNIC sentiment. Which, by the way, is not just a mental state of the individual but includes the mental state of the group as well and is always reciprocal: you belong to the group you identify with AND whose members recognise you to belong to. Therefore, it is possible to be a true white Masai, but this is exceptional and requires serious rethinking of old patterns on every side. Clarifer (talk) 09:30, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Ridiculous, Finland-Swedes, apart from capital region maybe, refer themselves as Swedes/svenskar, in Ostrobotnia the distinction between Swedes in Finland and Swedes in Sweden is made with the term "Sverigebo"/Sweden-dweller. Saying that finlandssvenskar are bluntly some sub-group of Finnish folk is ofcourse highly controversial, while making an analysis of Finland-Swedish culture a concept of "East-Swedes" would suit much better. We don't need any sources for self-explanatory issues, this thread is about Swedish people, not strictly about peoople "from Sweden". Interestingly it seems that the only one having problems with this article are bunch of Finns.Podomi (talk) 07:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Or might it be that those having problems really are wannabe Swedes? Even if Kronoby and Larsmo may have more contacts to the adjacent Finnish-speaking areas than You might be aware of and therefore have more cohesion with their fellow countrymen, I must say that it is my personal experience that such opinions represent more mainstream Finland-Swedish ideas than the ones presented by You. How about Vasa? Would You accept opinions by Swedish-speakers living there? How small must the village be, how Swedish-speaking the area, how far from every-day life must it be, how long must one have been living in Sweden or how many actual Swedish relatives must one have to end up with the kind of ideas You present? It may be true that there are some serious regional differences on this as this FAQ of a nylandbo will probably suggest [2]. The conversation that follows looks very familiar. Anyway, it is more and more apparent that as with all populations, the Finland-Swedes are far from uniform. The real question must be then: what are the opinions of the majority of Finland-Swedes. Clarifer (talk) 14:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, yes, we are dealing with "wannabe Swedes", fo sure. Couple word about "cohesion":

"Med finnarna har finlandssvenskarna åter en viktig politisk gemenskap, men detta innebär inte en etniskt gemensam grupptillhörighet". - Leif Höckerstedt, 2000

The conversation looks indeed very typical, I have dealt with the complexed Finnuit-nationalist bunch at wikipedia quite a whilePodomi (talk) 07:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Podomi, You truly seem much more confused than I originally realised. Please accept my regrets. Clarifer (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC).

Hopefully, the moderators will deal with your ad hominems.Podomi (talk) 08:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)