Talk:Chutzpah

This page was proposed for deletion by Ganesha811 (talk · contribs) on 29 July 2023.

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Untitled

This page was placed on Votes for Deletion in June 2004. Consensus was to keep; view discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chutzpah.

NPOV and etymology

Since we're keeping this, can we NPOV it a bit? Something a tad less gushy? NTK 01:31, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I can't seem to find an authoritative source that "chutzpah" came from Hebrew to Yiddish. Keeping in mind that Ben Yehuda reconstructed Modern Hebrew only at the beginning of the 20th century, and before then Hebrew had been a literary-only language for centuries, the key question is: did this word exist in any form of Hebrew before that time? If not, then Hebrew borrowed it from Yiddish, not vice versa. Queerwiki 01:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) bsjksjhkhykuysdui

Hebrew words are distinctly recognisable. I'm sure a linguist could explain in precise terminology how to recognize Hebrew words; I'm not a linguist, just a native speaker of Hebrew, but I can tell you that suggesting that Hebrew borrowed "chutzpah" from Yiddish makes about as much intuitive sense to me as suggesting that Japanese borrowed "sushi" from English. My little desktop dictionary cites the talmud for some early examples of "chutzpa", I'm sure if I had a hefty etymological dictionary I could trace it back even earlier. It's Hebrew alright. --Woggly 22:34, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough - and if it's in the Talmud then I'm happy - but remember that anyone who is a native speaker of modern Hebrew is speaking a language that was reconstructed 100 years ago from a combination of biblical Hebrew and contemporary langauges. Just as English speakers can get confused about word origin, I'm sure there are many Hebrew speakers that are not aware whether certain words came from ancient Hebrew, or from languages like Russian and Yiddish that predate the resurrection of Hebrew. So I think it was still a valid question for me to ask. Queerwiki 02:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. You came back 8 months later to look for a response to your question? Jayjg ^(talk) 17:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, I think I forgot to put it on my watchlist before I went travelling for a while. Queerwiki 19:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't noticed you responded! Anyway, as I was saying, unlike English, Hebrew is a language in which borrowed words don't naturalise easily. Words borrowed from Greek that have been in use for centuries have distinct markers. Even many words borrowed from Aramaic or Arabic stand out, though these languages are extremely close to Hebrew! I'd almost describe Hebrew as a xenophobic language, a language that doesn't take kindly to borrowed words... in short, a native Hebrew speaker's intuitions about etymology of Hebrew words are probably more reliable than a native English speaker's intuitions about etymology of English words. Not that your question wasn't justified. --woggly 17:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hebrew

Since this is an English language article, and I (along with most of the potential audience, I guess) don't read Hebrew, a transliteration of the Hebrew source-word ' חוצפה' would be useful

Fourohfour 09:57, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's just the same - read hutz-pah. The letters are (right to left :) - het (throat h), vav (read as u in this context), tzadik, pe and hey (h silent at the end as in "Sarah"). As simple as that.

Via Yiddish

I think it's fair to say that Chutzpah came to English via Yiddish (rather than direct from Hebrew, or from Yiddish and Hebrew), based on the history of the immigrants who brought it here... so I removed a redundant edit by 89.138.44.19 (the article clearly explains in the next sentence that Yiddish got it from Hebrew). Queerwiki 05:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English Meaning

While this discussion is interesting, English is probably the only language spoken today where the majority of its words are lone words imported from other languages. As this is an English language article, perhaps it should include discussion of the words meaning in English in addition to its meaning in Hebrew. I would say that in popular use today Chutzpah does not have a negative connotation. Rather the word would simply mean audacity or courage, more vulgarly stated “balls”. Rtb677 01:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Am I the only person who disagrees here? I feel like most uses I've heard have been very negative, along the lines of "extreme gall." The Leo Rosten "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan" definition works fits the bill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rotsapsky (talk • contribs) 17:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That was a joke. 92.15.16.149 (talk) 23:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"I feel like most uses I've heard have been very negative" -- your personal experience is narrow, and not relevant. -- 98.108.204.175 (talk) 02:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Modern Usage

White House Presidential Spokesman Tony Snow used the word "chutzpah" to make fun of President Clinton and his wife, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, for criticizing President Bush's decision to erase the prison sentence of former aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby: "I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it." (July 5, 2007)

A lot of people project onto chutzpah as a bad thing, but it's actually little more than confident critique of either culture or perspective. Tcaudilllg (talk) 06:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@Tcaudilllg it can be either negative or positive depending on context and how it said Multiverse Union (talk) 11:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Chutzpah comes from Arameic

The word does not exist in ancient Hebrew, but is common in Talmudic Arameic, from which it got into the Hebrew. DGtal (talk) 19:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article does not contradict that statement, nevertheless to include it a source is needed. Jon513 (talk) 13:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All it takes is a simple search in the relevant texts, freely available on the web (for example here). You will find חציף, חצוף, חציפא, חציפי and חוצפא (notice: not חוצפה, which is "hebrewised" by turning last א to ה) in the talmuds, but not in the bible or mishnah. Is this proof enough? DGtal (talk) 17:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that making the leap from us not being able to find it in the bible but being able to find it in aramaic texts to it originating from Talmudic Aramaic is one that would be original research, unless we can find some source that states that's the case. Yonatan ^talk 16:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with yonatan, that this needs a sources. Nevertheless, it is a bit frustrating to have something that you are very sure is true, but cannot include. At least the article does not contradict it. I will try to find a source. Jon513 (talk) 16:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do a Google Book search for The Genesis of Justice By Alan M. Dershowitz, look for chutzpah inside. On Page 73: The very word "chutzpah" ... was first used in the context of demanding that God keep His side of the covenant. It appears in the Talmud (Endnote #6) as part of the Aramaic expression chutzpah k'lapei shemaya - chutzpah even against heaven. Endnote #6 on page 92 says Sanhedrin 10:6. Queerwiki (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Chutzpah could describe a banality"

Currently the article reads:

"Chutzpah could describe a banality in which classical music is disrupted or turned into a competition or duel, while on the other hand a stubborn classical temperament could be viewed as equally audacious, as well as difficult and risky."

What does any of this mean?

Banality is triviality, predictability, something that is trite. How could chutzpah describe the set of things listed in this sentence?

Actually, the whole paragraph is poorly written, confusing, unreferenced, submitted by a one-time unregistered contributor, and seems to be vague meandering personal opinion on the hypothetical application of the term chutzpah in music. I'm not a habitual blanker but I've snipped this.

Ordinary Person (talk) 01:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wholeheartedly support your decision. Jon513 (talk) 12:43, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Michelle Bachmann

Joke of a presidential candidate recently pronounced this "chootspa" on the campaign trail and now user is trying to include this among the possible pronunciations of the word. This is NOT VALID. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.52.42 (talk) 07:56, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

However a mention on Bachmann's pronounciation and her use of it might be appropriate in the Popular culture section.Naraht (talk) 12:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bernie Sanders PIc.

I sent someone the Wiki link for this and my email shows a Pic of Bernie Sanders as well as the opening Para, though there is nothing in the article about him. I suspect that there may be some form of politically motivated sabotage taking place.2A02:8084:26E0:AA00:3DE3:26D5:D215:8B54 (talk) 11:50, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]