Talk:Jebtsundamba Khutuktu

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This lama has many names, the most common being Khalkha Jetsun Dampa and Jebtsundamba Khutught, at least per Google search. I have decided to make Khalkha Jetsun Damba the central name if for no other reason than that is the name he uses on his own personal website now that he exists in his 9th incarnation. You don't get that kind of help when you study European history. technopilgrim 02:20, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I prefer Jebtsundamba or Jebtsundamba Khutughtu, the Mongolian names, to "Jetsun Dampa" the Tibetan name in the Lhasa dialect. Although all but the first and the second were Tibetans, they are historic figures of Mongolian history. They were brought up in Mongolia and the eighth was a Mongolian nationalist. The ninth is the only exception. He spent most of his life in a Tibetan community. (Thank you for letting me know the nice page. I knew almost nothing but his existence.)

I'm always frustrated with the lack of consistency in Mongolian romanization. His title is File:Jebtsundamba mongol.png in the classical Mongolian script (the spelling has some variants.) and I romanize this into "Jebtsundamba Khutaghtu." This violates vowel harmony in favor of the original Tibetan word "rje btsun dam pa". My Mongolian dictionary transcribe this as "jabtsutamba hutuktu." The romanization system has many variants. Now, he is called "Жавзандамба хутагт" in Khalkha Mongolian and it is usually transliterated as "Javzandamba Hutagt."

Unfortunately the Mongols left a small number of documents in Mongolian, so we have to utilize foreign language including Persian, Tibetan, Russian, Classical Chinese, Chagatai and Manchu. It is sometimes difficult to reconstruct Mongolian spellings from these languages. This is another cause of romanization inconsistency.

--Nanshu 01:46, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The strength of your argument is overwhelming. I was certain that you would agree to changing to "Jetsun Dampa" based on his current incarnation's guidance. When you point out that only 3 of his 9 incarnations have been Tibetan and you additionally produce a copy of his name in the classical Mongolian script and modern-day Khalkha — well what can I say??? I am happily moving the page back to Jebtsundamba, thank you for the delightful education. technopilgrim 04:15, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't put weight on googling for Mongolian romanization because there isn't yet enough information information in English on the Net. P.S. only 2 of 9 were Mongolian, but all but the ninth grew up in Mongolia. --Nanshu 02:13, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Separate entry

separate entry for Bogda Khan? Like to put a bio on the 8th, esp since he was "Emperor of Mongolia; your redirects confound me, though. Any help? --nhrenton

Great idea. I encourage you to go forth and I will help as much as possible!—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)}

move

I've been bold and moved the article to Jebtsundamba Khutuktu, since Jebtsundamba alone just doesn't seem to be right in Mongolian. Khutuktu is of course not a very correct romanization, but still seems popular enough on the web. Feel free to move it to some other romanization (but please of both words!) if you like. I also redirected the Bogd-Khan-like redirects to Bogd Khan, but kept the Bogd Gegeen redirects pointing to this page. Am I correct in assuming that Bogd Gegeen can also refer to reincarnations before the 8th one?Yaan 22:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do we know the spelling in classical Mongolian? Otherwise I would be inclined to transcribe the modern version for people who lived, or titles that still were in use in the 20th century (even if they used the old script themselfes). I can't give a really good reason for that inclination, though, so maybe that's just me... --Latebird 06:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from the Mongolian script article, to me the writing given by Nanshu above looks like Jebtsundamba Qutuγtu - not really sure about the the final letter of Jebtsundamba, though. But that may be a difference between normal and cursive letters. Some of the letters are ambigous, but not the γ. Also, i fail to see any 'a' in the second word. I am for using Jebtsundamba for the first word, as it is IMO more common in western literature. From what I have read, anyway. As for the second word, Khutuktu seems to be a bit off actually, although IMO it is still common enough to spare the effort of moving the article and re-directing all those redirects. Yaan 11:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Choi. Lubsangjab et al. "Monggol Bichig un Hadamal Toli" (1992) spells Jibzun (2nd letter is "i" VS "e" and 4th letter is "z" VS "ts") for modern personal name Жавзан. But that might be more phonetical than traditional. Gantuya eng 17:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any convention on when the 'd/t' is transliterated to 'd', and when to 't'? In other words, why do we read Jebtsundamba and not Jebtsuntamba? Yaan 16:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, by context. This Tibetan name (T/D)amba (n/m; b/p/ph) is pronounced Damba in Khalha dialect. It's simpler with original (or earlier loaned) Mongolian words. But still there are dialectal differences. Gantuya eng 15:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reincarnations

The article is limited to the Jebtsundamba Qutuγtus of Khalha only, while www.zanabazar.mn lists many Jebtsundambas since Buddha Sakyamuni's visit. Gantuya eng 17:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the other incarnations did not really know that they were Jebtsundambas, or did they? I guess we could mention that formally Zanabazar was already the 16th Jebtsundamba. Or, if some previous incarnations are notable of their own, we should mention them by name. Yaan 17:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We--ordinary humans don't know them. ;) The reincarnations are aware of themselves. This is actually one deity changing bodies as old dresses. Gantuya eng 01:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK. What I'm asking is: will this article be about the 8+1 Jebtsundamba Qutuγtus of Khalha only or could it be expanded to cover the entire aspect of this deity. Or is this article intended to cover the topic as part of Mongolian history and a parallel article could be written on this deity as part of category of Buddhism ? Gantuya eng 02:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do we actually know about the other 15 besides their names? I guess it doesn't hurt to mention them. The "Khalkha" can be moved from the introduction to where it talks about the newer incarnations. --Latebird 05:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, this article covers Jebtsundamba Khutugtu as part of Mongolian history. If notable, another article could be written on the role of the deity in Buddhism. But if the deity is only notable because it is connected to the Jebtsundamba Khutugtus in Mongolia, it would be better to create a section on the deity within this article. Yaan 16:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why make it unnecessarily complicated? The article isn't overly long to include a list of names giving some more historical context. A seperate article covering the same incarnation sequence would only confuse readers. --Latebird —Preceding comment was added at 17:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, this seems to be the way it is handled for other reincarnations .Yaan 17:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Khutughtu, Khutukhtu, or something else?

I am now not particularly hapy whith the current name of the article anymore: It should either be Khutughtu, or the spelling that is most common in literature (and preferably the latter). I personally think that Khutughtu is more correct than Khutukhtu because a 'gh' before a consonant does not have any dots, and a 'kh' should not appear before consonants at all IIRC (plus it is Hutagt, not Hutaht, in khalkh mongolian). Yaan (talk) 13:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, I recently read Our Great Qing by Johan Everskog, which is mostly about Mongolian history. He has "Jebzundamba Khutugtu". In the notes, he says that he is using an Atwood system of romanization, which he says "reflects dialectical differences" (not sure what that means in practice).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 17:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fact checking needed

I read from the article, "In July 1999, while visiting Mongolia on a tourist visa, Jampal Namdol took part in an enthronement ceremony at the Ganden Monastery in Ulan Bataar. He continues to live in exile in India."

However, Ganden Monastery, as listed in Wikipedia, are either in Tibet or India, not in Mongolia. Can anyone help to correct this?--Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 18:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the monastery is probably Gandantegchinlen Khiid Monastery, which also happened to also call Gandan.--Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 18:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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