Talk:List of Chinese martial arts

Untitled

I will try to make this list comprehensive. In general, in order to be included in this list, I would like have the name with the chinese equivalent, it has some external reference and is still being taught. All suggestions welcome.

Wing Chun

Since this looks like a potential revert war, I figured I'd bring it up here. It sometimes seems trendy for systems to go around calling themselves Neija. Without arguing the merits of the term itself (which is relatively new; most "internal" systems long predate their classification as such), most Chinese systems have Neija aspects, as to many non-Chinese arts. However, most of those arts, despite having strong internal components, are not widely classified as Internal systems. Wing Chun is one such system - there's little doubt that it has a strong internal component, but common convention classifies it as an external system because of its strong external component. -Erik Harris 13:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

In that case we will just put it under the alphabetical listing. -- mh 14:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Wing Chun is external. If you're judging Chi Sau, call it internal, but when you look at Lin Wan Kuen, there's nothing less internal than that. True internal styles are internal throughout and wouldn't have such numb external moves as a key feature of their art. 86.184.169.46 (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

only arts with Wikipedia entry "permitted" on list?

Please share the Wikipedia policy or your reasoning behind deleting arts that have no Wikipedia entry.SmithBlue 16:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably worth your time to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Revert before replying. SmithBlue 16:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it might because some martial arts forms are non-notable? There are going to be a lot of damage and overlaps if the list is not well-maintained. In the case of I Liq Chuan, one can argue that it stems from a "recent family art". --mh 19:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The heading for non-notable states "This proposal was rejected by the community....You may still find this an essay worth reading." On reading the essay I find nothing that appears to provide reason for deleting a "recent family art". If anyone has another line of reasoning for the deletion of a "recent family art" please share it and the process by which I Liq Chuan was declared a "recent family art". Please relate also why you think it over-rides Wikipedia:Help:RevertingSmithBlue 01:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I googled "I Liq Chuan". Anyway, you have to ask the guy who reverted your edit. --mh 05:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Not a Wikipedia guideline, but a WikiProject Martial Arts guideline. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial Arts#Lists of martial arts. I believe at one point, I was linking to this in my edit summaries, but it seemed like a lot of effort for little use. -Erik Harris 14:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

So "WikiProject Martial Arts guideline", while not even mentioned on the article page is enough in your mind to override Wikipedia:Help:Reverting and the concerns about the effect of reverting raised in it? I suggest you read Wikipedia:Help:Reverting and find a better way of contributing to the maintenance of this list. You could start by including a link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial Arts#Lists of martial arts and making clear that entries to the list must conform to those guidlines. SmithBlue 00:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right, I didn't realize that the banner was not added to this talk page. Thanks for pointing this out. -Erik Harris 14:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The list has a mixture of Chinese, Hanyu Pinyin, Cantonese text - is there a better way to classify that and prevent repetitions? --mh 06:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Listing Founders/Head of System with style

For discussion: Most martial arts are recognized as much by their current grand masters or founders as they are by their name. For example, Jeet Kune Do is inseparable from Bruce Lee. The Wikipedia:WikiProject_Martial_Arts suggests that the founder be listed. My specific concern, of course, is that Fu Jow Pai is often referred to in magazines as "Wai Hong's Fu Jow Pai" and that his name should appear next to the entry. To do this, however, would mean some agreement from other editors of this article; he's probably better known than the system. Either we should begin listing founders or current heads of systems, or they should be removed entirely (including Bruce). JScribner 04:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Jeet Kune Do should not list Bruce Lee as founder next to it. I have removed his name to fit with the format applied to all other arts. While JKD may be inseperable from Bruce Lee and Fu Jow Pai from Wai Hong (I'm not particularly familiar with Fu Jow Pai), no art on this page states significant practitioners. I have also removed Lee's name from next to the Wing Chun, as it does not belong there either. (RookZERO 18:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC))

• This was a request for discussion and opinions, not unilateral action. Martial arts are inherently different from other arts, the format of other arts may not be appropriate here. In addition, it may be appropriate to list F/HS for all martial arts on this list, or to create a parallel list based on their names. JScribner 18:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd say, if the founder was not a matter of debate - and has a separate article - then list them, I'm not sure how many this will add (mostly modern arts I suspect). Current system heads probably belong only in the article, since they'll change over time and it is easier to maintain that in the article. Approximate date of origin is a good one to put in too, though that then leads to sorting by date and may cause "my art is older than your art" edit wars to put them in the "correct order". -- Medains 21:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I've had a think and changed my mind :) - it would be okay to add these details, but doesn't add much value to the list. -- Medains 21:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Ask for edit protection Wing Tsun Old Man

• since Wing Tsun(a traditional Chinese words '詠春'with copy right) and Shaolin Weng Chun Kuen are completely kungfu from two family. It should be claerly seperated. The Wing Chun pages will better be deleted or claimed clearly about that.--Koonleg50 (talk) 09:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Once again, Wing Tsun is part of the Wing Chun branch as a whole. Nobody is confusing it with Jee Shim Weng Chun or White Crane Weng Chun. As you have been warned before the last time you were blocked, you have provided no valid references, have been pushing your WP:OR, and have not achieved consensus. Now you're threatening to delete more material based on your WP:OR on a "shaolin weng chun", which further reflects negatively. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 09:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the Chinese characters that were there before? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rossen4 (talk • contribs) 10:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion of Jeet kune do

I am in favor of including Jeet Kung Do for the following reasons:

• the founder is Bruce Lee and he based his new style based on his experience in Chinese martial arts (esp Wing Chun). His writing reflects this (for example, The tao of gung fu - a study in the way of Chinese martial art, 1977 or Jeet kune do - Bruce Lee's commentaries on the martial way)
• JKD has a cultural and philosophical component that is related to Chinese Martial arts.

The question of new or hybrid styles are more difficult to address. I believe that as long as a style have attracted a good reputation and its sincere in their effort to promote the Chinese martial arts, I give them the benefit of the doubt. That is why I did not reject some of the more recent styles such as I Liq Chuan (意力拳) Mind-Body Art or Jing Quan Do (精拳道). ottawakungfu (talk) 20:23, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I asked the IP to provide a reliable source and he's having problems - even arguing that the word "Do" isn't Japanese when Chinese would of course be Tao (such as Tao of JKD). If you could provide some solid reliable references for him in regards to that, I wouldn't have a problem with it being added back in. A person's nationality doesn't have much to do with that though, it's the country of origin of the art and it's relation to other arts from that country. Whether we're talking about Jun Fan Trapping (the core of Bruce's personal art still taught in JKD today), or even the later "JKD" - you're talking about an amalgam of source material with a core element that is "mostly chinese". For example, Krishnamurti was just as influential to his philosophies as were other sources. I would hardly call that a "Chinese art", any more than that fact would promote it as an "Indian" one. And JKD Concepts (the chief format of JKD today) hardly promotes the image or connection of a traditional Chinese art - much more Filipino actually. It would be incorrect to say it's just based on Chinese martial arts experiences as is also illustrated by his source material you mention. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 21:07, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Also, in relation to what the anonymous IP asked about the characters around the JKD "logo", the Chinese characters state "Using no way as way" & "Having no limitation as limitation". --Marty Goldberg (talk) 21:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I've provided a reliable source which you've vexatiously removed it. I don't know why you're trying to persuade us "Do" is Japanese, are you attempting to quote JKD is Japanese martial arts? Nevertheless, the words "Jeet Kune Do" were translated from Cantonese, not Chinese Mandarin. Therefore "Do" is the pronunciation of Cantonese. (since Bruce Lee was raised in HK, he only speaks Cantonese). Bear in mind, Korean also used the word "Do"道, as Korean and Japanese both uses Hanja and Kanji (which refers to the Chinese character). The point I asked about the characters around the JKD emblem is to inform you that Jeet Kune Do is formed by Chinese characters and Chinese philosophy. Thus JKD is Chinese martial arts. Solidsoul (talk) 23:03, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1) the pronunciation of the character for "way" in Cantonese, and it's standard Jyutping and pinyin romanizations respectively, is Dou/Dao not "do" ((dou⁶/dao⁴) specifically). Mandarin would be Tao. Also incorrect would be the idea that someone would be excluded from Mandarin, most Chinese also speak minimal Mandarin, which is the international standard dialect for China. 2) Jeet Kune comes from the Eagle Claw form of the same name, the Do was picked up from the Japanese source - of which by the time the term was coined, he already had a wide exposure to non-Chinese arts, philosophies, and teachings which were also a documented part of his teachings. 3) As stated earlier, JKD is a mixture of philosophies, not just Chinese - this is all well documented, Bruce was a philosophy major. Krishnamurti was a major influence as mentioned. 4) Nobody is trying to persuade regarding "do" except you - I've already given the link for the Japanese word, you're the first person in my 30 years of martial arts and Asian languages that hasn't known this. 5) No, you did not provide a reference that meets wikipedia's reliability requirements. You provided a link to some school. Reliable means references that meet the requirements on reliability at the the link given, not websites you personally feel are reliable. And even then your source clearly stated JKD as being "Mostly Chinese", contradicting the reason you were providing it for. 6) Normal consensus building in light of a content dispute involves a moratorium of said content editing until resolved. Please respect the way we do things here, or it will reflect bad on any position on your part, and can also lead to action for disruptive editing. We're all after the same thing here - improvement of content. Have faith in the process if you wish to continue to participate here (which is always encouraged). As stated, if everything is satisfied, I'll be the firstone to add it back in--Marty Goldberg (talk) 00:34, 6 December 2010 (UTC).

Thinking about this further, I'd even be perfectly willing to compromise and start a "Modern Hybrid" section on the page that included JKD and several other more modern hybrids that are in the list. That way it would still be listed on this page (which is what you want), but there'd be some required distinction as well. Let me know if you're agreeable to that and we can just move on from this. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 02:07, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The pronunciation of "道" in Cantonese is not necessarily "Dou", since Cantonese is complicated, the pronunciation of Cantonese is variable. (maybe you don't speak Cantonese so you don't know much about it). "Do" was picked up from the Japanese source is actually misleading, you will have to provide reliable sources to support this. (you only asked me to provide reliable source which you have failed to do so). The link for the Japanese word "Do" is meaningless, as you can't use other article from wiki as a reference, and I've never read/heard about the "Do" from JKD was from Japanese, so stop making that up and provide reliable sources please.

If JKD wasn't Chinese, why would it be called Jeet kune do 截拳道? and why there are plenty of Chinese characters alongside the JKD emblem? Please explain.

ottawakungfu also agreed JKD should be listed on this page, I don't mind you start a "Modern Hybrid" section on the page or whatsoever, but surely JKD has to be listed on this page. Solidsoul (talk) 08:29, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

That's just silly, there's nothing for me to provide references for, I'm not the one claiming it's a Chinese art for inclusion on this page and reverting someone's edit from back in October. That's how asking for references works here, not by simply trying to repeat things back at everyone like you've been trying to do from the beginning. And you'd also be incorrect on what I do or do not know. I'm familiar with Cantonese, and I'm a teacher of Wing Chun and well involved in the Chinese martial arts community for years. The character for Dou are not pronounced "Do" in any dialect of Cantonese, period. Unless you going to start arguing that you somehow know better than the widely held standards already given, at which case I'd say further conversation is pointless. Likewise, Chinese characters around a logo simply state exactly that - Chinese characters around a logo. The content of JKD and it's curriculum, both past and present, is more than well known, published, and taught and is far from just being "Chinese". Regardless, matter settled, I'll create the new section. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 08:55, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The reason I asked you to provide references as you actually claimed "Do" from JKD was Japanese, this is your own personal idea and it's kinda misleading us. If you are familiar with Cantonese and well involved in the Chinese martial arts community for years, can you please explain why would it be called Jeet kune do 截拳道 and why there are plenty of Chinese characters alongside the JKD emblem? Thanks. Solidsoul (talk) 09:14, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the new section implemented by Marty Goldberg is a great compromise. Bruce Lee's published works are in English and the Jeet Kung Do is the translation he used. So we cannot read too much in the use of the word "Do". In his work, Bruce is highly critical of all traditional martial arts - including Chinese and Japanese martial arts. So he definitely would not consider himself to be practicing or promoting a traditional Chinese martial art. He is however a Chinese cultural icon and as such many would like to recognize this style as a branch in the Chinese martial arts. Good discussion everybody. ottawakungfu (talk) 03:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the contribution of Solidsoul, he raised a valid point on the inclusion of JKD as a Chinese martial art and talk presented a good compromise that solve the issue. I consider this issue resolved. The questions of the interpretation of the word "Do" is not germane to the placement of JKD on the list. Any discussion on this interpretation can be carried out within each user's respective Talk page. Thanks everyone! ottawakungfu (talk) 02:06, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Wiki Tags 2012

I like to reach a consensus on the wiki tags that appeared on this page. I do not think the tags are relevant for the following reasons: this page is a summary of the list of martial arts. It does not require reference or sources since all styles listed link to their respective wiki page. It does not contain original research because information for each style listed are based on their respective wiki page. I feel the current page meets with wikipedia's quality standards. My suggestion is to remove those tags. 02:57, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The "Internal and external styles" section should be referenced. There could possibly be some sort of reference as to why the list is divided into "general" and "hybrid", but I agree with you: Since it is a list there is not really anything to wikify, right? I removed some of the tags. If someone disagrees, please re-add them.Editfromwithout (talk)

Cleanup-remainder template now requires reason parameter

Hi everyone! A few days ago, an IP added {{Cleanup-remainder}} to the top of this article. This template now requires a |reason= parameter (just like {{Cleanup}} does). Could someone please add the appropriate reason or remove the template? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 16:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I Liq Quan

Has there ever been an article about this internal martial art in Wikipedia? It is not a very obscure art, and there's plenty of material about it in the web, so I don't think it can be deemed "non-notable". I am surprised no one has written an article about it, especially with the plethora of rather obscure ones listed in this here article. Any comments? Any takers for writing an article on I Liq Quan? Bruno talk 17:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Anyone? Bruno talk 20:51, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, I stand corrected. There is indeed an effort going on to publish this article, but it's running into creation issues. Anybody knowledgeable care to help the author(s)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:I_Liq_Chuan Bruno talk 18:11, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

I haven't got a lot of experience, but I think I understand the arguments, and I've been meaning to get into helping Wikipedia, so I'll have a go. Iislucas (talk) 15:15, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Well done

Just wanna say thanks whoever did all the work adding chinese characters, mandarin pinyin and cantonese transliterations too. Really useful cheers. Could be even better in a table, like on the wing chun glossary of terms page.

"Hop Gar" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Hop Gar. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. buidhe 19:08, 21 November 2019 (UTC)